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Topic: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter

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*and^#^%and^!!! Starter (1/14)
10/16/11 10:34pm

eldredjames

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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 365

Well, its official, my vette is going to behave like my old sedan. Fix one thing and another goes out. Now to scream...AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Thanks, thats better.

Been waiting to test the new fuel line. Recharged the battery, just a clunk. Jump started from my Mini Cooper, just a clunk.

Jacked up the front and put it on jack stands (again). Looks like I get to remove the right side headers to get to the starter on the ZZ4!

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! thanks again, needed to scream but didn't want to scare the little lady. I'm looking at those reduction gear starters but I don't know..

Any comments??

Jim

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (2/14)
10/19/11 6:42am

Sarge81

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WEST SENECA, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Blue Ice Met. w/pearl ghost flames TKO500 5speed. LS1 Swap 3.45 Dana 44.

Joined: 12/3/2001
Posts: 2379

I feel your pain. I'm still cringing when I here the word "starter."

I was chasing down a starter issue myself for awhile. I changed out battery cables. Put in a new starter extension harness. Another mini hi torque starter from "Tuff Stuff." After all was said and done I was still having the same problem. Turn the key and Clunk...clunk...clunk. So with some help from Ken Styer, it was narrowed down to the purple wire that comes off of the neutral safety switch above the clutch pedal over to the starter solenoid. Apparently the wire somewhere in the harness had shorted out. So I ran a new wire and that has seemed to have solved the problem. The only time I still have an issue is when the starter get hot.

So if you can...try to jumper the small terminal to the battery terminal on the starter and see if the starter will turn the engine over. If it does, this may be your problem. If it doesn't, pull the starter and bench test it. If it still doesn't work, then I would say it would be a good time to put in a mini starter.

Good luck

Just wanted to add, that when I jumpered the pigtail to rule out the neutral safety switch, (to rule out the neutral safety switch) the jumper wire literally started to glow. Which meant there was a definite short in the harness.

I hate to plug and play, but I figured since the car is 30 yrs. old and things are bound to wear out, I'm going to start replacing switches and wiring anyways for peace of mind since we do a lot of road trips in this car.

|UPDATED|10/19/2011 3:42:56 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

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GEN III 5.7L "LS6" Engine swap
TKO500 5 spd.

3.54 Dana 44

'69 "N11" Sidepipes
Borgeson Steering Box
Born 8/1981
Sequence #3975

Click here to see more pics of my Vette on CarDomain.

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (3/14)
10/18/11 9:53pm

eldredjames

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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 365

Mine's an automatic but I'm sure there is a similar safety wwire. Thanks, I'll check that next.

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (4/14)
10/18/11 10:26pm

Adams' Apple

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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20129

Correct...the on the automatic, the purple "Start" wire from the starter goes thru the neutral safety switch in the console, next to the shifter itself.
Have you tried starting it in neutral when the problem happens?
It could also be an ignition switch problem. The best way to check for this is to connect a multimeter to the purple wire on the starter solenoid. With the meter on voltage, you should see 12v or dang close to it when turning the key to "Start". If you see anything less than 12 volts while cranking, there is a problem in the "Start" circuit from the ignition switch, going thru the neutral switch, to the starter.

|UPDATED|10/18/2011 7:26:53 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (5/14)
10/22/11 9:09pm

eldredjames

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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 365

Today was the big day. We (stepson and I) tried all the jumpers suggested but to no avail. Finally pulled the header and the starter. Tried to jump the starter in the garage and no success there either, so I took it to Autozone to have it checked out. It failed their battery of testing.

That's actually a good thing, now I know what it is.

There seems to be three replacements available.
   The original type rebuilt or reproduced.

   The mini ones with a block for mounting or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-BBC-Chevy-Mini-Starter-3-Hp-3Hp-Extreme-Pro-Series-/200639236320?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2eb707c8e0

   The mini ones with a nose like the original.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400220493493?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I'm thinking I'll go with a mini one with a nose like the original. Not necessarily one from eBay. I know these are probably from Asia but the price is so good compared to GM $250.

Any comments before I order it?

Thanks guys and gals.

Jim

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (6/14)
10/26/11 5:41pm

nosal1
Former Member
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Dunedin, FL - USA

Vette(s):
1980 Corvette Torch Red with Gold metallic 370HP/350 CU.IN.Turbo 350 w/shift kit.Originally CA.Car with 305 CU.IN.

Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 262

Good afternoon all,I have on my Vette this system and have had for over ten years without one failure of my starter..This will keep the solenoid wire away from the starter and all the heat generated from headers or any exhaust system you have installed OEM etc. I did not buy this set up per se,however had to make the jumper with brass strap metal to connect to solenoid side to the positive post..you can mount the Ford type solenoid either in the engine compartment or bulkhead near evaporator box if you have AC in you car.Couple of hours and your down.. This system is one of the only two things Ford has ever done worth anything,and the second would be they put their distributor in the front of the engine..With the posi wire going to the starter when engine is running you will not have 12 volts to the starter until you need to start the car.This allows the posi cable cool as no current is coursing thru it until you try to start the engine..Hope this helps.. Sal C

|UPDATED|10/26/2011 2:41:25 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (7/14)
10/26/11 10:05pm

tb2k82ce

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Lemon Grove, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1982 C3 Collectors Edition 44000 miles, sat in the sun most of its life, My wife purchased it for me for Father's Day in 2007 from her girlfriend that had it for 19 years. It is on the road again. I'm retired but it is now my daily driver.

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 2041

I had something like this done to a car of mine that had starter problems. It fixed it just as the mechanic said it would. That was a lot of years ago and never would have thought of it if it were not for your post.

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (8/14)
10/26/11 11:13pm

Adams' Apple

I've modified MANY Chebby starter to use the system like nosal shows...it definitely improves the durability, and the functionality of the starting system by leaps and bounds. However...it will not fix a bad starter, or bad starter solenoid. You do have to be careful when buying the Ford style solenoid, too, as most of them need to be bolted to something that is grounded, or you need to run a good ground to whatever you use to mount the solenoid. I spent several hours on a '63 Pro Mod Corvette trying to figure out why it wouldn't crank, only to discover the solenoid wasn't grounded, even tho it appeared to be bolted to a metal panel....which was riveted to the fiberglass firewall ....

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (9/14)
10/27/11 4:41pm

To all, Please excuse my absence of thoroughness regarding mentioning the grounding of the solenoid,as any add on electrical part must be grounded on Vettes as they do not promote the best of grounding..As Joel so correctly stated any and all solenoid especially for Fords require grounding.As is almost always working with Ford products,you have to pay attention closer than normal. Take care all and have a wonderful day.... Sal C

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (10/14)
10/28/11 8:13am

Adams' Apple

Another kewl thing about this conversion is...it helps with big blocks that keep snapping the nose of the starter off. Don't know why, but it has solved that problem on more than one truck for me....

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (11/14)
11/3/11 10:59pm

eldredjames

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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 365

Here's an update for anyone who comes across this thread in years to come. We took apart the header and pulled the starter. I replaced it with a compact one. It worked good for a few times, but the replaced header was blowing a little exhaust out and the head. After we tightened that up, the starter won't engage anymore. We get a horrible chattering noise like the starter gear and the flywheel are touching but not completely engaging.

Back at it tomorrow. But at least the fuel lines we replaced are not leaking.

But it sure feels good when she is roaring!!

:-) Jim

|UPDATED|11/3/2011 7:59:38 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (12/14)
11/4/11 5:57am

Good Morning Jim,I have run into this problem a few times with various cars and Vettes.What sometime the problem is that the "high torque"starter you buy have the incorrect amount of gear teeth,thereby causing the starter gear does not match up to the flywheel,which is also a contingent as there are two SBC flex plates if auto trans,hence the different tooth count (153 12.875 IN. AND 168 14.12 IN. FLEXPLATES)The torque starters have 9 and some have 11 tooth gears...Secondly they can mount straight across and also diagonally..The ones that work the best are the 11 tooth diagonal type,however sometimes you have to use shims as well. We replaced a high torque starter on a 383 stroker 4 times until we got the right one to use...This is what is known as a detrimental education process,and time consuming,hopefully you won't fight the problem as much. Have a great day and good luck with the project.. Sal C

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FIXED -- Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (13/14)
11/10/11 3:44pm

eldredjames

Lifetime Member
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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 365

I had used a bolt from Home Depot, a 3/8 x 4 inches regular bolt as one of the starter bolts had two stripped threads. When I got under there, both bolts were loose. Apparently the knurling on the other bolt was 'tired' as well and both bolts were loose. I bought a new pair of 'GM style' bolts (about 1/16th inch longer than my bolts) and tightened it up. Works like a charm now, just as I had expected.

Anyone out there replacing a starter - save yourself a hassle and check the knurling on the bolts for wear.

Thanks for all the assistance.

Smile

Jim

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Re: *and^#^%and^!!! Starter (14/14)
11/11/11 12:04am

Adams' Apple

Way to stick with it!! Glad that's all it was, but...yer right...GM starter bolts are "special". The knurling definitely helps keep them from backing out. A regular bolt may get ya home in an emergency, but they usually don't last long.
Good Job!! Clap

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