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Topic: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is

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Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (1/94)
 8/15/15 5:45pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Hello All,

A few weeks ago, after parking the vette, I noticed a steady drip coming from under the car.  Front middle area almost looking like a bit on the passenger side.  Not entirely sure about passenger side because liquid will take the path of least resistance.  Anyway, the fluid was clear and felt almost like mineral oil...a little greasy/oily feeling.  Didn't have a smell at all.  Washed right off my hands with no residue.  AC was not running (don't think I have ever even tried turning it on) so it was not condensation.  Came out the next day before heading off to work, and A LOT of this fluid had fallen.  Any idea what this fluid is and where it might be coming from?

Thanks in advance,

Jason Beer


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (2/94)
 8/15/15 6:28pm
kstyerLifetime Member
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It could still be from the A/C. It could be refrigerant oil. You may have gotten a leak in the evaporator. Thank a look and see if is coming out of the A/C drain.
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (3/94)
 8/15/15 10:14pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Thank you, Kstyer.  I will check the A/C plug.




|UPDATED|8/15/2015 7:14:33 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


______________
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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (4/94)
 8/16/15 9:25am
Adams' AppleLifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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Jasond56 said: Front middle area almost looking like a bit on the passenger side.


I'm a little confused as to WHERE this drip is. Front by the nose of the car, middle towards the firewall area....or front center....where?
A clear liquid could be an oil, or brake fluid. A steady drip as you described should show as a low fluid level somewhere. Check your brake fluid, coolant, and engine oil levels. Could be fuel leak, too. A leak in the evaporator should show up on the passenger side firewall area, just behind the front tire. Big smile


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (5/94)
 8/16/15 1:00pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Adam's - it seems like the drip is coming from the center of the engine compartment more towards the nose, and a little towards passenger side. If looking at the car from front, I would say the drip is about 2' or so from the nose and ever so slightly to the left. Definitely not behind front wheel towards fire wall. Didn't have a gas smell...no smell actually. Made me think of mineral oil because of color and consistency. And I lost a lot. Made a small river from under the car to a low spot in my garage. Weirdest thing. Have been afraid to start her since. I took a video of it but I cannot upload vid here. I read somewhere this could be an indication of a cracked block? My heart stopped after reading that one. I checked fluid in master cylinder and it is full. Will get to coolant and oil this afternoon. I would think coolant would be greenish, which this was not. Unfortunately lately I have been left with only a few hours 1 day a week to work on her. Thank you!

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (6/94)
 8/16/15 7:02pm
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Jason, if you have a youtube account, upload the vid to youtube, and post a link here. Not going to be a cracked block...put your fears to rest on that. If you have colored coolant(green, red, whatever), then it would be that color. Assuming you DO have antifreeze in it, that is.
From the area you described, it could still be a fuel leak....the fuel pump is right in that general area.

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (7/94)
 8/16/15 8:58pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Thanks for putting my fears to rest about the cracked block!!  Thumbs Up

Update: Got under the hood today.  Checked oil and it could use a little bit, but not much at all.  Checked the coolant, and it was definitely low...I had to add just about a half a bottle of coolant.  I use 50/50 no water, so I agree with you that it would have been green in color.  the low coolant could be from when I replaced lower rad hose and it wasn't tight enough.  Lost a bit during that "getting it just right" process.  Guess it was a little more than I thought.

Here's the kicker...after filling the radiator and recapping, while the car was running, I noticed a pretty bad leak coming from the radiator neck over flow hose (the one that goes from radiator neck to the plastic overflow tank).  Hose was split about 1/2" at the neck.  Left a nice sized puddle under the car.  Replaced the hose and now no leaks.  Problem is, I was on a darker more porous cement than my garage floor so it was REALLY hard to tell the color.  Censored

The puddle that was left was right by passenger front tire and a little behind it.  I want to believe I fixed the mystery leak, but the puddle location tells me otherwise. 

If it is a fuel leak, wouldn't I smell a strong fuel smell on my hands and in the vicinity?  I had the fuel pump replaced a year ago when I bought her.

Thank you!

Jason




______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (8/94)
 8/16/15 9:44pm
kstyerLifetime Member
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Your first description threw me off. Coolant can travel quite a ways as it leaks and travels across surfaces and brackets. Yes fuel should have a strong smell, but depending on conditions you may not pick it up. You may top all fluids, fix the split hose, and just let the car run while keeping a close eye on everything and see what you can see. Be sure to have plenty of light.
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (9/94)
 8/16/15 10:10pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 154

Sorry about that.  Tried to be as descriptive as I could.  I also checked those two AC valves (black twist knobs) and although one was a little loose, the area seemed bone dry.  I will try running her for a while and keep an eye under there. 

In the meantime, I did as Adams' suggested and uploaded the video of the drip.  Don't know if it will help but you never know.  Link is below...

https://goo.gl/photos/6jabbFFBUaQn45RCA


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (10/94)
 8/16/15 11:25pm
stingrayjim jrLifetime Member
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power steering fluid?? its usually clear and kinda viscous...??


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (11/94)
 8/17/15 9:47am
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Jason, that is either a fuel pump, or water pump leak. Has to be one or the other.
Here's a LIVE LINK to the vid.


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (12/94)
 8/17/15 10:16am
DaveMLifetime Member
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That's a good leak, if it is fuel you would smell it for sure. You said you changed the lower hose, check the fit of the hose at the water pump and make sure it's not leaking. It looks like it's coming from that area. Good luck.
Dave


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (13/94)
 8/18/15 9:37pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Ah yes, water pump.  I bet that's what it is...but wouldn't the leaking fluid have been green?  I use 50/50, not water.  Isn't the "water" being pumped actually the antifreeze?

I Googled replacing fuel pump on a C3 and it looks pretty involved.  Is it something a novice can do?  Any tricks or pit falls to watch out for?

Thanks, guys!


______________
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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (14/94)
 8/18/15 10:46pm
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Before you start tearing into it, you really need to determine exactly WHERE that drip is coming from. You're going to have to get the car in the air somehow, and get under there with it running, and find the source. True, a fuel leak that large should smell like fuel, and a coolant leak should have a color to it. Assuming your coolant is the green stuff, then what is dripping on the floor should also be green. The ONLY other possibility in that area is a trans cooler line leak....which would give you a redish color fluid on the floor. Approve

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (15/94)
 8/18/15 11:22pm
F4GaryGold Member
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Get someone that can smell.  Coolant smells and feels like coolant.  Unmistakable. Gas smells, feels, and spreads out on the floor like, well, gas. 

As we get older, we lose our sense of smell...


|UPDATED|8/18/2015 8:22:59 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (16/94)
 8/21/15 4:42am
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Thanks guys for the feedback. I will have a chance tomorrow to get her up in the air and look for leaks while running. Can I assume that if it is the water pump it will continue to leak as long as there is coolant in the car? Because I'll tell ya, I started the car periodically this week (5 minutes here 10 minutes there) and I have not seen a leak and I know radiator is full and coolant is flowing. Been watching lower rad hose at water pump and its dry. Will update my findings tomorrow

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (17/94)
 8/21/15 5:27am
Redwoman
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I watched the video and that is a pretty good leak! Running five or ten minutes might not be long enough. I would duplicate what you did before when it leaked. If you took it for a twenty minute drive and it leaked, then do it again. It might need to get hotter to make hoses expand to cause the leak. Not fun working around a hot engine!! Like you mentioned early fluid travels to the low spot. So don't just focus on where it is dripping search everywhere. Keep us posted and hope you find the leak. Good luck!! To answer the original question if it will keep leaking if there is coolant in the system. It will has long has it doesn't get to low or run out.

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (18/94)
 8/21/15 6:24pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
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Thank you Redwoman.  Are you a Game of Thrones fan?  I just got into it and got up to "The Red Wedding"!  Unbelievable!  Just got all the books for my Kindle as well.   Thumbs Up

Anyway, good advice trying to replicate what I did when I noticed the bad leak.  I just ran the car hard.  Just about 30 mins like I did last time.  Jacked her up and noticed very minimal dripping this time, I mean hardly at all.  I am beginning to wonder if I corrected the issue when I replaced that radiator overflow hose?  The water pump area seemed dry.  The rad hose where it meets water pump seemed dry.  Gods be kind!

I did notice one area under the car that had a few drips forming.  I apologize, but I am not sure what this item is.  I circled the areas forming drips in the pics below.  I hope the pic is identifiable. 

Thanks again for your advice!  For Winterfell!






______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (19/94)
 8/21/15 6:44pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 154

I forgot to mention: Checked the power steering fluid as well.  It is definitely at the ADD line.  Could that leak have been PS fluid?  Going on that, I called my local GM dealer and they said regular old PS fluid is fine to add.  Is that true? 


Thank you!


______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (20/94)
 8/21/15 8:01pm
Adams' AppleLifetime Member
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Automatic trans fluid will work in the PS system, unless you just wanna buy a power steering fluid. There is nothing power steering related on that side of the car, so your drip-drip is NOT from the power steering. Thumbs Up

The top circle in the pic is the fuel pump line. The lower circle I'm not really sure, but it could be the fuel spraying from the pump to the frame. Imma betting your fuel pump is leaking out the "weep' hole.



|UPDATED|8/21/2015 5:01:51 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (21/94)
 8/25/15 8:28am
Redwoman
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Game of thrones! OMG! Before Game of thrones I never watched a complete movie, I always fall asleep! It was a game of thrones marathon. My wife and I watched all weekend and every night until we watched all of them. Then we watched them a second time because things that were said in episodes one are related to something in episode three. Watching a second time you pick up on a lot of things you missed the first time. Then we watched them a third time. Back to the leak. Like Joel said fuel pump weep hole. That is the exact location of the drip on the video. When you change fuel pump before you unbolt it from block there is a short bolt on front of block you take out and put in a longer bolt. It holds the rod in place that goes from pump to inside block. Make sure you put the short bolt back in to release rod or you will cook the motor. Check with Joel maybe he can send a pic of the bolt or explain it more detailed than I did. Nice job on air cleaner! Good luck!,

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (22/94)
 8/29/15 8:13pm
Jasond56
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Ok guys!  FINALLY TRACKED THAT LEAK DOWN!!!  Very excited I was able to reproduce the original conditions.  Car has not been run in over a week.  Fired her up, revved her for a bit and presto!

I think it's definitely water pump (or something in that immediate area).

It's not upper rad hose as I ran my finger around the lip and it's dry.  In video 4 you can see upper rad joining water pump and it's dry.

Below are links to 4 videos.

Video 1: The original video I posted - https://goo.gl/photos/kt8AM8eXzpNCUpGr5

Video 2: Car ON video taken from above, passenger side - https://goo.gl/photos/KzQXKqfMxb7FFr3J6

Video 3: Car OFF video taken from above, passenger side - https://goo.gl/photos/47mR4NJLDeJBsTCv9

Video 4: Car OFF video taken from under, passenger side.  You can see fluid looks ALMOST greenish, like a watery green, and it feels like the fluid in original video - https://goo.gl/photos/53VQCWQG3VaESJ1b8


Thoughts?






______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (23/94)
 8/29/15 10:51pm
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Water pump leaking. I can see green fluid on the engine....as well as it being green as it drips in the last vid. Mystery solved! Thumbs Up

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (24/94)
 8/30/15 10:35am
Jasond56
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So that begs the question...how hard is it for a novice to replace water pump? I've watched a few videos on the process and it doesn't seem THAT difficult. And I've priced a new pump out and they're not that expensive. However places like Eckler's have like 5 different pumps for the same year / engine type and they range from the $50 - $2-something range. Regular, high flow, aluminum, steel, etc. I'd like to do it myself so I can paint the parts while I have them off: new pump, fan blades, maybe pulleys. Plus I have a feeling a machine shop would charge me my first born. And I'd love to get the experience! Thanks guys!

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (25/94)
 8/30/15 10:39am
F4GaryGold Member
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Hardest part is having to lean over those wide fenders.  I swear I have hyper-extended knees from working on my Vette.  Big smile

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (26/94)
 8/30/15 12:30pm
Jasond56
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F4Gary - Any tips/tricks/pit falls to watch out for?  Do I need to worry about torquing to spec?  I do not have torq wrenches...but I can invest in them if need be.


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (27/94)
 8/30/15 2:25pm
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

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Hey Jason - good to hear that you've discovered the source of the leak, fluid color was definitely the give away and leaking out water pump front bearing/seal is pretty common. No quick fix and it will only get worse so now is the time to do it before it leads to bigger engine problems.

Personally I think this is the perfect DIY project for you. It will be a great learning experience and will take your knowledge of your car to the next level. Having said that, there can also be a few pitfalls and it has the potential to open up a few cans of worms as you take things apart. The keys are to take your time, take lots of photos before you take anything apart, keep the parts sorted in the order in which you take them off because usually the reverse order is how you'll put them back together and finally take some notes. Memory is a great thing until your putting it back together the following weekend and you forgot what goes where.

Changing the WP on a small block chevy is pretty basic, getting to it on your car since you have A/C and your smog pump is still installed will be a little tricky. IMHO, no special water pump is necessary, std. flow cast iron is adequate for a base SB 350. Check with Autozone, NAPA or whoever you have for a local auto parts store. Since we've determined your car is pretty original, do not throw away or turn your old WP in for a core until you know if it's the original or not, we can help you with that once you have it off. Regarding the torque wrench, not a necessity but a good idea. Check to see if your local auto parts store has a rent or borrow program. You won't need it until you start putting things back together.  

So before you even go buy a water pump, the first serious pitfall might be your radiator. In order to change the pump, you have to drain the antifreeze out of the engine and radiator. There should be a plug or petcock on the bottom corner of the radiator, usually the pass side right below the lower radiator hose. A plug is pretty simple, counter clockwise to unscrew and drain. A petcock has a t-shaped fitting that turns clockwise or inward to drain the fluid through the center hole, usually the petcock fitting stays in place to drain. Be very careful with either of these fittings. Plugs and petcocks get very corroded and sticky with time and the end tanks of the radiator are very thin metal. Twisting the plug or petcock fitting out of the radiator will be a nightmare. Usually it means your radiator must come out to be repaired or installing a new one. That will make changing the WP look like a day a the beach !!

The alternative to drain the radiator is cutting or removing the lower radiator hose. A bit messy and very tight quarters to work in but it can be done. If your plug or petcock does not break free easily, stop and consider this method.

Once the system is drained, disconnect the battery and remove all of the belts, you should have four. Alternator, power steering, smog pump and A/C. All of these accessories have nuts or bolts to loosen, generally one to maintain tension and one to pivot on. Take pictures and notes of belt placement and what you loosened where.

With the belts off, pivot the alternator, A/C compressor and PS pump out of the way as best you can, no need to remove any of these.

The smog pump on the other hand needs to come off. I'm sure there are professional mechanics out there who do not, but I prefer to have a little bit more room to work. Remove the SP tension bracket, there will be one small bolt on the pump and another nut that holds it to a stud on the top LH WP bolt. The stud on that top WP bolt should hold both the smog pump and alternator tension brackets. Note the order of each bracket and any washers/spacers that might be there. That order controls how the brackets align with their accessories. You can also remove the alternator tension bracket at this time. Moving back to the smog pump, disconnect the small and large hoses you worked with on your previous vacuum hose project, pictures and note again of what goes where. Once the hoses are off the only thing holding it should be the pivot nut/bolt on the bottom.

With the smog pump out of the way you'll have good access to the fan, pulleys and WP. Since this is about half way to the actual removal of the pump, I'll take a break and let you review and contemplate the project with the info given above. Certainly the biggest obstacle to consider is the radiator, don't want to scare you off but many people have had very bad experiences with C3 radiators. Check out the petcock/drain plug and see if that's going to be the tipping point on doing this yourself. If it drains with no problem your ready to roll, if not, consider the lower radiator hose option or maybe a local shop for the repair. Do't take it to any old repair shop, do some research and find someone with some C3 experience. Hopefully we can walk you through this !!       

 




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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (28/94)
 8/31/15 1:12am
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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VMan73 - I can't begin to thank you for the detailed response.  It is a great feeling to have a "life line!"  As you know, I am a beginner.  To have experienced guys willing to give a newbie a hand instead of a *tisk* *tisk* and a shake of the head, is more appreciated than you know.  Red Velvet means a lot to me.  One day it will be my son's.  Getting it right, and more importantly safe, is a priority.  Again, thank you, guys, for all of your support!!

I will do as you suggested and take detailed notes/pics.  That's exactly what happened with my carb and hoses.  Thought I had it in memory, a week+ went by, realized my memory was not so good.

The good news is I flushed the radiator and installed a new lower rad hose last November.  The petcock manipulated easily!  From what I can tell, the radiator is really clean and in great shape.  Thankfully I will not have to remove lower rad hose.  I think I'd rather give up an arm then go through the ordeal of replacing that hose again!  :)

I think my biggest reluctance is those belts and pulleys.  Guess I just have to get in there and do it and hope for the best!

I'm curious why trading in the core if it's an original could be an issue?  Is it because it could be an original part and worth money?

As a side note: filled up power steering fluid this weekend.  Overflowed it.  Last time I was in New Orleans my wife and I got these jello shots in huge plastic syringes.  Something told me to hang onto one of them.  The syringe fit perfectly under the alternator and into the power steering reservoir, which, as you know, is a really hard area to get into.  Sucked out the extra fluid.  Goes to show you never know what will come in handy when working on these cars!

Again, thank you very much!

Jason




|UPDATED|8/30/2015 10:12:59 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (29/94)
 8/30/15 9:00pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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Update:  Draining coolant now.  Will let it drain overnight.  Petcock opened easily!  :)       Beer

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (30/94)
 8/30/15 10:55pm
Vman73
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F4gary ?? You are da man, LOL !! No biggie, glad to hear your radiator is all good and good to know you've got some experience with it and the lower hose. Continue on per my original post and I'll write up Phase II tomorrow morning. Regarding the WP core, if it's the original, like many of the other parts of the car it can be rebuilt and reinstalled somewhere down the line or have value to the next owner if they want to restore the vehicle. Like the engine block, the WP housing has a casting number and a date code that are particular to your car. Easy to save the original now rather than searching for one later. Just had my original rebuilt and reinstalled. Look for Phase II tomorrow.

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (31/94)
 8/31/15 1:15am
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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VMan73 - ugh so sorry for the name confusion! I corrected in my response. Will let you know how things go. I'm lucky. I have a career that allows me work from home a few days a week. The water pump is my goal for the week :)

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (32/94)
 8/31/15 8:45am
Redwoman
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When you go get the water pump you will need to get two gaskets for the pump. The gaskets are sold separately and individually. Trying to save you from making two trips to parts store.Check the belts for cracks and excessive wear. Now would be the time to change them if you haven't already. Never throw out any original parts!!!!

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (33/94)
 8/31/15 10:52am
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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Thank you Redwoman! I will definitely check those belts for cracks and I will be sure to grab 2 gaskets. So far I've been good at keeping items I have replaced: old shift console, old arm rest, master cylinder cover, oil cap and radiator cap. I'm really considering rebuilding water pump if it turns out to be original. If not, I will replace and keep. GoT! The fight with Mountain and the prince! The siege on Castle Black! Is Sensa really marrying that psycho Ramses??? Gah! I can't take it!! :) Jason

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (34/94)
 8/31/15 6:13pm
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

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Hey Jason - no problem, F4gary is a good guy and we've got to spread some appreciation his way too !!

So now on to Phase II - with the belts and the smog pump removed, we need to make a little more room by removing the smog pump mounting bracket and the upper radiator hose. The hose is pretty straight forward, just make sure to be careful if you do any twisting of the hose where it attaches to the elbow on the top of the radiator. Like the bottom end those connections to the radiator are thin metal brazed to the radiator tanks. You would not be the first person to rip the metal elbow right off the radiator by twisting it. Sounds like you have a good radiator, be gentle with it when taking hoses on or off.

So now back to the smog mounting bracket - you'll notice on the bottom it is held in place by one of the 4 bolts that attaches the water pump. Go ahead and take that bolt out and mark it top RH WP bolt or something you'll remember. The second bolt that holds the SP bracket on goes into the intake manifold, go ahead and remove it, mark it also and keep it with the smog pump bracket.

Now your ready for the fan, fan clutch and WP pulley. Prior to removing anything, make note of the clearance you have from the back of the pulley to the top of the water pump casting. You should a 1/16" or more. Use this as a reference to compare that same clearance when you install the new pump. 99% of the time that clearance will be the same and you'll be fine. If that clearance gets significantly tighter, you may have to shim the pump pulley out. We'll worry about that when your back in reassembly mode.  

Leave the fan attached to the clutch (silver thing with the aluminum fins) and look for the four bolts holding the clutch to the WP. Remove each of those four nuts, if the stud comes with any of the nuts that's okay. With all four removed, move the fan and clutch forward and it should tilt backward and out of the radiator shroud. Be careful not to gouge the backside of the radiator with the fan blades. With the fan and clutch out of the car you can remove the WP pulley and clearly start to see the WP.

Disconnect the lower radiator hose from the pump along with the heater hose that is attached to the pump. Now is a good time to check the condition of both heater hoses and determine if they are in good shape or need replacement. If you chose to replace the heater hoses, note their routing down to the heater core and be very careful with their connections. The heater core is just a smaller version of the radiator and replacing one of those is C3 nightmare #2. If you go there, also make note that the hoses are two different sizes (5/8" and 3/4"). Smaller one to the intake, larger one to the pump. If I'm removing old hoses to replace, I prefer to gently cut them off with a sharp utility knife and avoid any excessive twisting. Reinstalling new hoses I always make sure the metal tube or elbow is clean and coat the inside of the hose with a small amount of Vaseline or just wet it with some new antifreeze.  

So with the hoses out of the way, go back to the water pump bolts on the passenger side, one has already been removed when you took off the smog pump bracket, there is a second down lower, remove that bolt. You may get some antifreeze out of either bolt hole - nothing to worry about. Make sure to mark that bolt bottom RH WP.

With those two bolts out of the way, you'll notice there is another cast bracket overlapping the WP on that side, that bracket goes up to the A/C compressor. In order to get the pump in and out that bracket needs to be removed or swung out of the way to get the pump by, I prefer to remove it. That bracket is a two piece assembly and if you can locate and remove the correct bolts, that bracket can be removed while the second part stays attached to the A/C compressor. Here's a great place to take some pictures because once that bracket is out it may be a little confusing how it goes back in later.

So with the A/C bracket removed or out of the way the only thing holding the pump in place are the two bolts on the LH or driver's side. The top one should be the stud that was holding the smog pump and alt. tension brackets, the bottom should be just a simple bolt, mark both as top and bottom LH WP bolts. It may sound silly, but those four bolts are all different lengths and have caused more than a few guys problems on the reassembly.

With all four bolts removed and if your WP hasn't already fallen out, all that's holding it will be some gasket material and it should come out with a bit of a pry and wiggle of the WP. Congrats', your half way there !!

Let me know if you have any ??? or prefer a little less detail. I'll post up Phase III tomorrow.

Good Luck !!!

   

 




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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (35/94)
 8/31/15 7:03pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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OK Update:  All belts and hoses are off and so is the complete fan shroud.  All bolts/washers are marked and set aside. I took a lot of detailed pics. The smog pump is a real pain.  The "pivot bolt" holding the smog pump in place does not clear the pulley attached to it.  Tried to remove the smog pump pulley and it just spins and spins.  Tried holding it steady to remove bolts and it just wouldn't go.  I may have to leave the smog pump on.  It pivots well out of the way.

First pic is looking toward water pump from driver's side.  Second pic is looking toward water pump from passenger's side.  The wet stuff is WD40 over spray.

I am printing out your Phase II instructions.  I will report back once water pump is off :)

PS: What are the drawbacks of removing the smog pump for good? I can see how NOT having it there would give a lot more room to work and see the engine itself.


 








|UPDATED|8/31/2015 4:03:02 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (36/94)
 8/31/15 7:03pm
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

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No problem, your doing good, good pics. Sorry, I forgot about removing the SP pulley. You should be able to leave the smog pump in it's bracket and remove both the pump and bracket. One bolt below on the water pump, the other one back on the intake manifold. Give that a try.

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (37/94)
 8/31/15 9:21pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


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Thank you!  Worked hard this afternoon!

I just went out to the garage and took a quick peek.  I see what you're saying about keeping the smog pump in its bracket and removing both as one piece.

What I'm not seeing is where the fan clutch meets the water pump.  From what I can tell, the fan clutch mounts to water pump pulley, not the water pump itself.  I tired to remove those 4 bolts on the clutch and the pulley spins.  I tried gripping the pulley by hand and loosening the bolts to no avail.  I'm reluctant to use vice grips or anything like that for fear of bending the pulley.  Suggestions?

Again, thanks for all the help!!!

Jason




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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (38/94)
 8/31/15 10:24pm
F4GaryGold Member
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Jasond56 said: F4Gary - Any tips/tricks/pit falls to watch out for?  Do I need to worry about torquing to spec?  I do not have torq wrenches...but I can invest in them if need be.


I've never used a torque wrench on an iron block water pump.  As my grandfather used to say, tighten it down till it strips and back it off a 1/4 turn...


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (39/94)
 8/31/15 10:32pm
Adams' AppleLifetime Member
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Jason, to get the fan clutch off, you'll need to remove the four nuts next to the PULLEY, not the ones closest to the fan. Since you already have the belt(s) off, the best way to hold the pulley while loosening the nuts is with a long screwdriver. Wedge the screwdriver between one of the nuts/studs on the pulley, and then loosen one of the other nuts, while hold the screwdriver. Go around and loosen all four of the nuts first, then you'll be able to wrench them off easily.Don't be tempted to grip, or wedge the pulley itself...you'll wind up bending, or damaging it. Hold the pulley by the nuts...it won't hurt anything. Once you get the fan and pulley off, you'll see how it all attaches to the pump. Those four studs with the nuts are actually threaded into the WP shaft....Wink
Keep track of any spacers, like the one on the smog pump bracket, and be sure to get them back in the correct location. Make sure you take note of the bolt lengths on all of the bolts....they're not all the same length, plus some have stud heads on them for other brackets to fit onto.
Make sure the block is dry when you're ready to reassemble everything. Use a small amount of silicon, or aviation sealer on the threads of the four bolts that hold the WP on....those bolts go thru to the water jacket.

If you really want to keep the original pump, assuming it IS the factory pump, you can do what I did. Buy a reman pump(NAPA, Autozone, etc), the take the guts out of that and install them in your original pump housing. Not really that hard to do, but it needs to be done carefully. I actually bought two reman pumps for mine. One I installed so I could drive the car, and the other I gutted when I was ready to rebuild my original, and put it back on the car.

|UPDATED|8/31/2015 7:32:04 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (40/94)
 8/31/15 10:30pm
Adams' AppleLifetime Member
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F4Gary said:I've never used a torque wrench on an iron block water pump.  As my grandfather used to say, tighten it down till it strips and back it off a 1/4 turn...

Hmmm...I was always told to tighten until JUST before it strips....LOL



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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (41/94)
 9/1/15 2:14pm
Vman73
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Hey Jason, how are you doing ?? Hope your not PO'd cuz I talked you into tackling this one. Follow Joel's instruction on getting the four clutch/pulley bolts loose and remove the fan. One thing I forgot to mention is that the pulley assembly is actually two pieces, the original two groove WP pulley and a second single groove add on pulley for the smog pump. Hopefully with the fan and pulleys out of the way you can get back to my original instructions. The A/C bracket can be a bit tricky but you can do it. When you get the pump off you have the option to install the new rebuild or purchase a rebuild to get the new components out of it to rebuild yours like Joel mentioned. You can also save it and send it to a professional rebuilder if your not comfortable rebuilding it yourself. So let's take a look at your to see if it's original, if not, then the decision is easy, just put the new rebuild on and turn the old one in for a core. On the front face of the pump on either side of the shaft there should be two sets of numbers. The first is pretty big and easy to read, that would be the casting number. The correct casting number for your car is 330818. If that number matches look for the casting date on the other side of the front face. That number is substantially smaller and a little harder to read. The casting date starts with a letter denoting the month A=Jan., B=Feb. and so on. If I remember right your car was a March or April build so hopefully the date code starts with a B, C, or D. The second character will be one ore two digits indicating the day of the month and the last character is one number indicating the year, hopefully your is a "3". So if our casting number matches and the date code is prior to the built date of your engine, you have the original water pump !! 99% of the time the old pump is just turned in for the core charge and a bit of the car's originality is lost. It also another small part of that "numbers match" statement you hear about most Corvettes. Let us know where your at and what you find out about your pump.

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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (42/94)
 9/1/15 2:15pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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Another great morning!  Got the water pump out!  Vman73 your instructions were perfect!  Again, thank you very much! 

A few things I hate: the AC bracket and the smog pump in general :/  Smog pump was very difficult to remove and that AC swivel bracket is impossible to swivel out of the way while the water pump in still attached.  Matter of fact, when I removed the lower left AC bracket bolt (lower left if looking at the car from the front) that attached the AC bracket to the water pump, a fairly large chunk of the AC bracket itself came off with the bolt.  I do not think it is a big deal, but still.  I am assuming I have to keep the chunk on the bolt when reassembling to allow the proper distance that bolt is supposed to go into the bracket/water pump.  I hope that made sense.  I think I would like to bypass both the AC and smog pump at some point.

Other than that...Adam's, brilliant idea using a screw driver as a lever to stop the pulley from spinning while removing the fan clutch.  Worked like a charm!

I scraped the old water pump gasket material off of the block.  Both sides.  Seems nice and smooth.

Any suggestions to clean things up in there?  I'm guessing I have to be very careful if spraying with Simple Green...wouldn't want to get a cleaning agent in water pump block holes, correct?

A few things I found: on the front of the fan clutch is a large "CA".  Does this stand for California package?  Does this further verify the car was an original California production?  We talked about that a few threads ago when we were deciphering engine numbers.

On the water pump itself I found the following numbers: 330813  C53GM1.  To my untrained eye, I tried looking for a leak area on the water pump and I couldn't find a ting.  I hope the leak WAS the water pump LOL  Wacko

Here are a few pics of today's progress!!

Thanks again!  You guys rock!










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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (43/94)
 9/1/15 2:21pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

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1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 154

VMan - You must have been writing me as I was updating you guys on today's progress! 

It seems the casting numbers are a bit off.  Mine are 330813 (instead of 330818) and C53GM1 (instead of GM3).  So close!




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"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (44/94)
 9/1/15 2:48pm
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.


Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 405

Jason, looks great and it looks like we both posted at about the same time. First of all your right, you don't want to get a bunch of cleaning solution or grease into the WP holes. I suggest using some paper towel to soak up the anti freeze that's immediately in front of the holes until it 1/4" or so below the level of the hole, then clean the surface with some lacquer thinner or other solvent. You may also have to use a razor blade or sharp putty knife to scrap off any of the remaining gasket. Once the bare metal surfaces are clean and dry, use some duct tape to tape off the holes before you start cleaning. Don't get too aggressive around the taped areas and blow the tape off. So the second part of your note is also great information, your casting number is correct and the casting date of C53 which is March 5th of '73 looks good for your car (if I'm remembering your engine build date correctly). Now you have a decision to make on if your going to rebuild the original or just install the rebuild. Installing the rebuild is probably the easiest, just save the original to rebuild at a later date. If you install the rebuild unit, you'll notice there might be a few things that need to be transferred over. The four studs that hold the fan on and the pipe fitting that connects the larger heater hose. The pipe fitting is pretty straight forward, just be careful not to damage it or the WP casting. Clean the pipe threads with a wire brush and use a small amount of liquid pipe dope to seal the thread when you reinstall. The studs can be taken out in a number of ways depending how how tight they are. The easiest is to run two of the nuts together on the same stud and turn the bottom nut out to get the stud moving. The second option is to buy a stud removal socket at your local auto parts store, I believe those studs are 1/4". The last an most tempting option is to use a small vise grips on the non threaded section of the stud. This is my least favorite option, but I have done it, just be very careful so you don't muck up the threaded section of the stud. Hopefully the first option will work. Regarding the CA on the clutch, I don't think it has anything to do with California but I could be wrong. There is however another date code on the clutch if you're interested. I'll post some additional information and a picture of mine so you can see what your looking for. You're doing great !!

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John Sigmund
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Duct tape is the new Black !!
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (45/94)
 9/1/15 2:55pm
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.


Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 405

Wow, we cross posted again. Take another look at the last casting digit, I'll bet its an 8 not a three. Disregard the GM1 below the casting date, the 3 you are looking for is in the C53 above the GM1 portion. I could be wrong but I believe you've got the original pump, take a closer look.

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John Sigmund
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NCRS Member 61302
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Duct tape is the new Black !!
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (46/94)
 9/1/15 3:31pm
Jasond56
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Kenosha, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 154

Vman73 said: Wow, we cross posted again. Take another look at the last casting digit, I'll bet its an 8 not a three. Disregard the GM1 below the casting date, the 3 you are looking for is in the C53 above the GM1 portion. I could be wrong but I believe you've got the original pump, take a closer look.


We're vibing today!

Here are some better pics of the casting numbers.  See what you think.
I also found a set of numbers on back of one of the fan blades.  Not sure if they mean anything...











______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (47/94)
 9/1/15 5:05pm
Vman73
Former Member

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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.


Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 405

Jason - Looks like your on a part number roll !! 3991427 is the correct part number for a 1973 seven bladed cooling fan and they are date coded with a single letter for the month and two digits for the year, so B73 is Feb., 1973, perfect for your car. Back to the water pump, the C53 above the GM1 stands for March 5th, 1973, again perfect for your car. There is a slim chance that it could also mean '63 or '83 but I'm going with '73. Regarding the last digit of the casting number it certainly looks like a three but could also be an eight with a void cast into the center. It looks like there is a small hole there in the center which may indicate a potential void. If you also look very closely at the center of the other two 3's you'll see that the center section returns a bit farther than the one in question. So even if it's a three there is still a void cast into that number. I don't have any particular reference to see if 330813 is even a legit casting number, but with that date code to support it, I'll say that 3 is indeed an 8. Perhaps someone else has a different opinion or a way to validate if 330813 is even a legit number (Joel or Kyster??). Keep going, your doing good. Your probably in clean-up and paint mode, have fun.

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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (48/94)
 9/1/15 9:21pm
Jasond56
Former Member

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Kenosha, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Corvette Stingray Coupe VIN 1Z37J3S418986 350 L-48 Automatic T-Tops St. Louis Assembly, 18,986th car built in 1973, Paint = 976 Mille Miglia Red, Interior = 425 Dark Red Vinyl (Ox Blood)


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 154

I'm really excited about all these numbers matching!  I'm starting to think the previous owner did not know what he really had!  I am keeping detailed notes on each thing we uncover.  It's like unraveling a mystery!

Question - what does a "voided" casting number mean?

At this point I have to stop for a few days.  Have to get to the office :(

I am going to clean things up as best I can.  Do some painting (brackets, pulleys, water neck).  That will give me time to decide what to do with the water pump - have it professionally rebuilt or buy a rebuilt and store the original.  I think I am leaning towards having the original rebuilt.

Until next time...

Jason


______________
"You know, we always called each other goodfellas. Like you'd say to somebody: You're gonna like this guy, he's all right. He's a goodfella. He's one of us. You understand?"




Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (49/94)
 9/1/15 10:43pm
Adams' AppleLifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas


Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20126

The "CA" on the fan clutch is the production/option code. It told the assy line workers which clutch to install on an engine, depending on if it had A/C or not.

Take a look at the bottom of your water pump....the leak is coming from the weep hole.




It's either leaking from there, or possibly the rear sheet metal cover. Either way, it needed to be replaced. Yer doing a great job...keep at it! Thumbs Up




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Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (50/94)
 9/2/15 12:33am
Vman73
Former Member

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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.


Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 405

Jason, the void in the casting that I'm referring to is when the material that is being cast does not fill the mold properly. It could be something that got stuck in the mold from a previous part or a defect in the mold itself. When the hot metal is not allowed to fill into the mold properly it can cause a void or a hole in the part. Something in that last 8 of the casting number prevented the metal from getting into the mold at that point preventing that portion of the number from being properly formed. No casting expert here, just my opinion.

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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
Re: Fluid Leak...Not Sure What This Is (51/94)
 9/2/15 12:50am
Vman73
Former Member

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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.


Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 405

So here's a twist on the WP casting number, just double checked the 330813 number and it is correct. I got the 330818 number from Richard Prince's '68 to '83 Restoration Guide (page 135) but it must be a misprint. Just checked my pump and the NCRS Judging manual and 330813 is correct, sorry for the confusion !!

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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
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