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Topic: I hate timing lights

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I hate timing lights (1/25)
 3/5/05 7:28pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

okay..  I got my new intake today for my truck..  replaced it..  (took a little under two hours, would have been quicker but i spent 15 minutes looking for a pipe thread plug)

cranked it..  the extender tube for the oil sender broke at some point in the process..  replaced it..  cranked it up..  couldnt find my trusty vaccum gauge to retime it

grabbed my timing light just to get it close..  set it to 15 deg advance, then drove over to my friends house to pick up the vac gauge i loaned him.  ran like a gutless wonder the whole way..  and got very hot. 

hooked up the vac gauge..  got 12 lbs...  this thing has a stock cam so i knew this wasnt right...  timed it to peak..  19 lbs..  and now it runs like a scalded dog.

put the light on it just for fun..  it says im running 30 deg initial time..

POS needs to be recalibrated and its only about two years old.  I hate timing lights.  This is why I NEVER use them to time a car if I am able to use a vac gauge.

even if your vac gauge shows the wrong figure..  doesnt matter as long as you can find a peak..

 



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I hate timing lights (2/25)
 3/5/05 8:02pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

btw..  just went back down to retune again..  decided to recheck idle mix with new intake..

got the vac up to 19.5 from about 18.75 at idle..  so it made a difference.. 



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I hate timing lights (3/25)
 3/5/05 8:31pm
Lynne73
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Easton, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Coupe 350 Auto.T-Tops L48,65450 miles.


Joined: 11/6/2003
Posts: 232

 Ben, when were kids we use to set our timing by ear to the highest RPM.When you use a vacuum gauge do you hook it direct on the intake or a port on the carb?. Your talking vacuum at idle.I'm gonna try it and compare it to a timing light,and see which way runs better. 

  Dave

I hate timing lights (4/25)
 3/5/05 9:40pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

yeah i used to time by ear also..  just that I usually got it too high..

i use direct manifold vacuum..  and if im feeling espeically anal retentive that day ill unhook and plug all other vacuum accessories.

i always remove vac advance line and plug it.  then turn timing to peak vacuum..  it will turn quite bit without change at the peak..  i turn it back down until it drops again.. then back up just enough to hit peak again..

this works very well for me.

if you do this and find that you get a little detonation under load..  (i did this evening) then replace your distributor advance springs.  i did this.. no more detonation..  i dont think the springs had ever been replaced in my truck..  they were very weak. unless youve replaced them recently i would try this before turning timing down a little.

the higher the manifold vacuum.. the "hungrier" the engine is..



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I hate timing lights (5/25)
 3/6/05 11:00am
RedwingvetteLifetime Member
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Waterford, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Red coupe


Joined: 9/13/2002
Posts: 1735

Ben, What did you use on the botl threads? I have used Permatex #2 in the past but the last time I put the intake on I used the paste that ARP recommends and most of them are leaking now. I plan to go back to Permatex.

  



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Brian - NCM Lifetime Member

73 coupe L48, Flat-top pistons, Performer RPM Heads, Crane Cam and roller rockers, Holley 650 vac sec. Performer intake,
3.55 gear BTO 200-4R trans,
Leather seats, Seatbelt Plus 3point seatbelts, Pioneer CD player
Magnaflow Exhuast System

Dewitt radiator and dual electric fans
Borgeson Steering box
 


I hate timing lights (6/25)
 3/6/05 3:00pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

[QUOTE=Redwingvette]

Ben, What did you use on the botl threads? I have used Permatex #2 in the past but the last time I put the intake on I used the paste that ARP recommends and most of them are leaking now. I plan to go back to Permatex.

[/QUOTE]

do you mean the pipe threaded plugs for unused manifold ports ? i used high temp plumbers thread tape



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I hate timing lights (7/25)
 3/6/05 4:18pm
RedwingvetteLifetime Member
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Waterford, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Red coupe


Joined: 9/13/2002
Posts: 1735

No Imean the intake bolts that screw into the heads. The threads ar open to the inside of the motor and oil usually finds it way up the bolts and puddles on the top of the intake if the threads are not sealed with some type of sealent.

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Brian - NCM Lifetime Member

73 coupe L48, Flat-top pistons, Performer RPM Heads, Crane Cam and roller rockers, Holley 650 vac sec. Performer intake,
3.55 gear BTO 200-4R trans,
Leather seats, Seatbelt Plus 3point seatbelts, Pioneer CD player
Magnaflow Exhuast System

Dewitt radiator and dual electric fans
Borgeson Steering box
 


I hate timing lights (8/25)
 3/6/05 5:03pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

oh..  just plain old silicone

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I hate timing lights (9/25)
 3/6/05 5:32pm
RedwingvetteLifetime Member
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Waterford, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Red coupe


Joined: 9/13/2002
Posts: 1735

Thanks. I might try that.

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Brian - NCM Lifetime Member

73 coupe L48, Flat-top pistons, Performer RPM Heads, Crane Cam and roller rockers, Holley 650 vac sec. Performer intake,
3.55 gear BTO 200-4R trans,
Leather seats, Seatbelt Plus 3point seatbelts, Pioneer CD player
Magnaflow Exhuast System

Dewitt radiator and dual electric fans
Borgeson Steering box
 


I hate timing lights (10/25)
 3/6/05 11:35pm
kstyerLifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!


Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6424

That's what I use.
I hate timing lights (11/25)
 3/15/05 9:36pm
Tumarr
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Batavia, IL - USA

Vette(s):
496 big block, Dragvette 6 link, 12 bolt IRS conversion, Going for fastest Vette IRS E/T


Joined: 3/27/2003
Posts: 622

Well today I got my vette out from storage and thought I might try the vaccum timing method. I bought a vacuum gauge from the zone and plugged it in to the carb and blocked all the other hoses. At 800 rpm it was reading 14 so I moved the distributor until I got a peak of 18 lbs. I locked it down and went for a test drive. Wow! Is all I can say! The Vette feels like I gained 50 hp. I have a hard time not squeeling the tires at lights now! The dyno shop didn't even get it to feel this good. Thanks for the tip Ben!
I hate timing lights (12/25)
 3/15/05 11:33pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

you're welcome tom.. 

my grandfather taught me that method..  he was "old school"

for curiousity what does your light say..



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I hate timing lights (13/25)
 3/16/05 2:18am
Tumarr
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Batavia, IL - USA

Vette(s):
496 big block, Dragvette 6 link, 12 bolt IRS conversion, Going for fastest Vette IRS E/T


Joined: 3/27/2003
Posts: 622

Heh I didnt even use a light to look to see where its at. but I'll put the light on it tomorrow if I can dig it out of my box.
I hate timing lights (14/25)
 5/11/05 6:02pm
YellowLT1
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Louisville, KY - USA

Vette(s):
1971 LT1 Convertible PS PB 43K miles


Joined: 11/11/2003
Posts: 97

cthulhu

Hooked up the vac guage to the line running between the carb and the distributor.  Turned distributor to peak vacume (went from 10 to 17).   Car idled higher so I turned it back down to 800 rpm with idle screw.  Car did not run well when I accelerated - rough.  What did I do wrong?  I read your comment about replacing distributor springs.  Do I even have those in a transistorized ignition (71 LT1)?

Thanks for any suggestions

Rgds Neil

 

 

 

I hate timing lights (15/25)
 5/11/05 6:54pm
kstyerLifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!


Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6424

You don't want the vacuum line from to the distributor.  You want a manifold vacuum.

And yes, the car does have the springs.  You will find them under the distributor rotor.

I hate timing lights (16/25)
 5/11/05 8:04pm
YellowLT1
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Louisville, KY - USA

Vette(s):
1971 LT1 Convertible PS PB 43K miles


Joined: 11/11/2003
Posts: 97

Thanks Ken

Now for the question I'm sure you knew was coming.  Where do I find "manifold vacume".  Sorry for being such a DA but I have never done anything with vacume and don't know much about it. Thought it might be an easier way than using a timing light.  Just bought the guage yesterday.  Can I get distributor advance springs from Autozone etc?

Thanks again
Neil

 

I hate timing lights (17/25)
 5/11/05 8:45pm
kstyerLifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!


Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6424

Any vacuum souce connected directly to the intake manifold.

Examples:  Vacuum line to the transmission.  To the brake booster if you have power brakes.  PCV valve.  If you have a Q-Jet, the top passenger side corner of the carb where the line connects to go to  any air filter connector.  Any line connected directly to the intake, and not the carb.

AutoZone does not have the advance springs.  NAPA might.  Summit, Jegs etc. will.  At one time these were common, but it getting more limited due to drop in demand for the cars that use them, and are still being driven.

I hate timing lights (18/25)
 5/11/05 10:11pm
YellowLT1
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Louisville, KY - USA

Vette(s):
1971 LT1 Convertible PS PB 43K miles


Joined: 11/11/2003
Posts: 97

Thanks Ken

I'll try the power brake booster vacume line tommorow. 

Rgds Neil

I hate timing lights (19/25)
 5/12/05 11:49am
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

[QUOTE=YellowLT1]

cthulhu

Hooked up the vac guage to the line running between the carb and the distributor.  Turned distributor to peak vacume (went from 10 to 17).   Car idled higher so I turned it back down to 800 rpm with idle screw.  Car did not run well when I accelerated - rough.  What did I do wrong?  I read your comment about replacing distributor springs.  Do I even have those in a transistorized ignition (71 LT1)?

Thanks for any suggestions

Rgds Neil

[/QUOTE]

did you recheck for peak AFTER you turned the idle back down..  you have to have manifold vacuum peaked at IDLE speed..

it sounds like you peaked it..  then dropped idle..  and didnt re-peak



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I hate timing lights (20/25)
 5/12/05 3:08pm
YellowLT1
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Louisville, KY - USA

Vette(s):
1971 LT1 Convertible PS PB 43K miles


Joined: 11/11/2003
Posts: 97

cthulhu

OK I peaked vacume (turned distributor counterclockwise) then reset idle then repeaked.  Still runs rough after about 2000 rpm.  Found a vacume advance spring kit at a local speed shop and will try new springs later today as I am pretty sure mine are original.   If that does'nt work for me I can always set it back like it was (distributor about an inch clockwise from where it is now).  I will let you know how it works.

Neil

I hate timing lights (21/25)
 5/12/05 9:17pm
YellowLT1
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Louisville, KY - USA

Vette(s):
1971 LT1 Convertible PS PB 43K miles


Joined: 11/11/2003
Posts: 97

cthulhu

I put new springs in.  Got an MSD kit.  Started with light ones and then went to medium.  I could NOT get it to run right at peak vacume.  Went back to the timing light and set 12 degrees initial and 36 total all in at 3500 rpm.  Car seems to run fine even at high rpm (5-6000 rpm).   This leads me to conclude that I must still be doing the vacume procedure wrong so I'm just going to leave it until someone can show me how to do it right.  I did learn alot more about how to use a timing light today and also how to change the distributor advance springs so that was fun.

Thanks again
Neil

 

I hate timing lights (22/25)
 5/13/05 7:22am
Toms82
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1982 Collector Edition


Joined: 3/12/2004
Posts: 67

My 82 CE has a stock crossfire system, does this method of timing by using vacuum also work on motors that are electronically controlled?

Thanks,

Tom



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I hate timing lights (23/25)
 5/18/05 1:55pm
cthulhuLifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans


Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3231

[QUOTE=Toms82]

My 82 CE has a stock crossfire system, does this method of timing by using vacuum also work on motors that are electronically controlled?

Thanks,

Tom

[/QUOTE]

nope...  only for non electronic cars



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I hate timing lights (24/25)
 4/29/08 6:26pm
bio11
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Oklahoma City, OK - USA

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1972 LS5 Convertible,Auto.Targa Blue with Black Interior.


Joined: 4/1/2007
Posts: 432

You can order Mr. Gasket kit #928 from Jeggs. It has several differant springs so you can experiment. I think on GM point distributors they recommend 1 silver and 1 black spring to get advance all in at 2500 rpm. This kit is also used for other applications such as HEI distributors etc.
Lonnie
I hate timing lights (25/25)
 4/30/08 8:44am
MikeMc71
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Tucson, AZ - USA

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1970 White L-46 Air Roadster, 1971 White LT1 Coupe, 1971 Red Auto Air Coupe, 383 stroker, 430 HP, 2002 Millennium Yellow Auto Coupe


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Posts: 341

Be very careful when you play with the TI timing in your LT1, running the car too far away from the recomended can cause the TI amp to overheat, and then you see a little puff of smoke, and a bad smell. Then the car just stops running........

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