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2/10/08 6:57pm - Original Message: 'scanner question'
eddie20875 Lifetime Member
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Lanoka Harbor, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1975 metallic blue coupe with t-tops,L48, t/t steering, black leather interior. 1990 L98, white/red leather interior, auto,a/c

Joined: 12/21/2006
Posts: 828
one thing i don't particularly like about my 90 is the computer in it. drives me crazy as to what may be wrong. very easy on my 75 as it is precomputer.

with almost every thing that has to be checked you need a scanner to read what the sensors are reading. i bought a snapon mt2500 which reads the codes and shows all the info but thats about the extent of it.

i am looking for a different scanner that can do more and have heard that the matco determinator is an excellent one. anybody ever use one or have any opinions that might help. thanks for any info.
eddie208752008-02-10 16:58:27

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2/10/08 9:22pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
I've never used the Determinator, so I can't add anything for it.
Do you have the "Troubleshooter" cartridge for your 2500? The main("Primary") cartridge is simply a communication protocol between the vehicle, and the scanner. The Troubleshooting cartridges give you the specs, troubleshooting tips, and TSB info. If you don't have the Tblshooting cartridge(s), I'll look and see if I have an extra one. If I do, I'll send it to ya.

btw...sorry, but your P/M got dumped before I could respond...then I totally forgot...

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Joel Adams
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"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/11/08 12:32am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
Is the SnapOn MT2500 a good scanner?  If so, what should I look for in a package/kit to be useful on "The Beast" ('90 ZR-1) and "The SilverBuckboard" ('01 F-150)...???  There are a bunch of them listed on eBay at the moment.

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Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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2/11/08 8:15am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
The 2500 is the standard that all other compare to. It has, in the last 4-5 years, been unseated as the "King" by other tools from Crap-On. The Modis is now the ultimate...at an ultimate price.
Then there is the Solus, which is a more moderately priced scammer, with some added features such as graphing capabilities. There is also a MT2500/hybrid(for lack of a better term) that does the same as the 2500, but also has graphing capabilities, but it is not as good as the Solus, or even the Vantage Power Graphing Multi-Meter.

For the everyday, just want to piddle on yer own vehicles, the 2500 is a good deal, IF you get all of the latest software/cartridges. It is the Troubleshooting info that is worth the money on ANY scan tool. The scam-tool itself is nothing more than a glorified code reader/data acquisition device.
There are many other scam-tools out there, such as the Determinator, but I haven't used any of them, except the OTC "Enhanced Monitor 400E", which I use here at the house.
For shop use, I have the MT2500, and the shop has a new Solus Pro. I sold the shop I worked at before this one on the Modis...I got spoiled by the Modis...it is the absolute BEST, imho.

Any scammer you look at just be sure it will cover the year models you plan to use it on. Some of the newer ones will not support anything older than 1995(or before OBDII). Make sure you are getting the latest software with it. A good scammer will have live data acquisition capabilities...not all do. Check to see if it will also be able to over-ride computer signals, so you can operate individual components, such a the electric fans, shift solenoids for the trans, Idle speed solenoid, etc.


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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


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             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/11/08 1:59pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
Thanks for the "Scammer-101 info" Joel.  I know nothing about these units so a few more questions come to mind.
 
If a unit just mentions OBDII should one assume that it will not work for OBDI...?  Some I've looked at list an OBDII adapter but not an OBDI adapter.
 
Will an older OBDI unit work on OBDII (with the proper cartridges) vehicles?
 
What are 'personality keys'?


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Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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2/11/08 4:03pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
"Personality Keys" is a Crap-On deal...OBDII stuff. It allows for the same OBDII connector to communicate with every manufacturer's vehicle protocol. The keys just fit into a slot on the OBDII connector, and basically "rewire" the connector to fit the application. Some also have resistors, or even a small chip.

If the specs only show OBDII, normally it will not work on the '95-older cars, but...you should always ask first. Some just don't advertise OBDI capabilities, as it is not as common now, and not really a selling point.
Any new scanner should come with the OBDII connector. It is really the only connector needed for '95-newer cars, as they vehicle connectors are all standardized to OBDII specs.
Some vehicles will also have a manufacturer specific connector, as well as OBDII. Those also have mfg specific software/com protocols.(mostly the European cars-Mercedes/BMW/Audi/VW)

The '95-'96 cars may or MAY NOT be OBDII compliant, you need to check the connector to be sure. The gov allowed some mfgs a little leeway in getting up to speed on the OBDII stuff.

On a lighter note....someone walked off with our new SOLUS-PRO scammer this weekend!!!!!!!!!! It was here when they locked up Fri nite...gone Sat morn!!!! How's THAT fer a kick in the head?!?!?!?!? That's the SECOND scammer someone has made off with in the last few months!!!
The manager here thinks one of the employees walked out with it...I think he's prolly right.....can you say, "Needy mooney para me beer, vato"?


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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/11/08 5:59pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
Thanks again.  I've been looking for a unit that I can use on "The Beast" mainly.  If it works on "The SilverBuckboard" that would be a plus and on my bride's "Scooby-doo" (an '04 Subaru Outback) that would be a bonus.

____________________________________
Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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2/11/08 9:51pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
The MT2500, with the latest software, would support ALL of your vehicles, Jim. Of course, the software for the ScoobyDoo would be included, if the scammer you get has the latest, All-n-One Primary cartridge. These are programmable, too, so you don't have to buy new cartridges/chips like we used to...they just plug them into a port on the 'puter, and d-load the latest upgrades on-site.

I'm not sure what support/troubleshooting the 2500 would have on a LT5, tho...I know it will pull codes/live data, but don't know about any troubleshooting info...I can check on that tho...never really even thought about it!
Now I just gotta know!

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/14/08 1:02am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
Is the GM-1 adapter the same as the OBD-I adapter?

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Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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2/14/08 8:12am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
There are two GM connectors/adapters...One is for the REALLY early cars, like the '81-'82s(5-pin...I think), and then a 12 pin connector starting in '85-'86. I'm not sure which one Crap-on calls the GM1, but I think it is the 12 pin. I'll look at mine when I get to work. My OTC Monitor I have here has the connectors labeled differently, by application. I'll check and post in about 45 minutes or so, when I hit the shop.


The "GM1" connector is the 12 pin...you could call it OBDI. THis is what your Zcar will have, Jim. The other cars, 95>, will have the OBDII, 16 pin connector. Adams' Apple2008-02-14 11:12:30

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/14/08 6:08pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
eddie20875 Lifetime Member
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Lanoka Harbor, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1975 metallic blue coupe with t-tops,L48, t/t steering, black leather interior. 1990 L98, white/red leather interior, auto,a/c

Joined: 12/21/2006
Posts: 828
joel a friend of mine has an 88 vette and he still has the 5 pin in his. thought his connector was messed with now i'll check if i have the right cable as i couldn't read his with my scanner.

joel do you know if there is a special cable for the 5 pin connection or do you use the multi connection cable. if it is the multi connector do you have a diagram of what wires connect to what pin? thanks for any help. dave

just one other question (sorry). is the obd1 connection bi-directional? just wondering as that would mean you could reprogram the prom if need be.
eddie208752008-02-14 21:08:46

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LIFETIME MEMBER #97
THE DYNAMIC DUO


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2/14/08 11:08pm - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
You cannot reprogram ANY prom chip(that I know of). They are "burned" chips. The later cars have programmable computers, though.

The ALDL connector on my '85 is the 12 pin. The connector for the OTC Monitor scanner is labeled "GM TPI". I use the GM1 connector when I use the Crap-on 2500 scanner on it.
The Crap-on, and the OTC scanners have the connectors for the 5 pin ALDL...at least mine do. Most newer scanners may not furnish them. You can use the old paper-clip method on the 5-pin connectors, and watch the "Check Engine" light blink for the codes. Seems like you jumpered the "A" and "B" terminals, but I can't remember...it's been many years since I've had to jumper one, since I bought my first scanner in '90.

As far as I know, only the OBDII systems are actually bi-directional, meaning you can control certain functions thru the scanner(idle speed, injector firing, EGR application,etc.), and also re-programs the PCM thru it.



____________________________________
Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/17/08 12:51am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
I've been watching units on eBay for a couple of weeks now and prices seem to be all over the place.  Some folks are VERY proud of what they have and others seem to be rather reasonable.  Some units have more cartridges and adapters than others so I can see where that would influence the price to a certain degree.  I'm sure brand spanking new these units were/are very spendy but none of the items I've seen listed so far have mentioned when they were originally purchased.  So I'm curious to know - what is a fair price for one of these? 

____________________________________
Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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2/17/08 9:43am - Reply: 'scanner question'
eddie20875 Lifetime Member
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Lanoka Harbor, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1975 metallic blue coupe with t-tops,L48, t/t steering, black leather interior. 1990 L98, white/red leather interior, auto,a/c

Joined: 12/21/2006
Posts: 828
i paid about $500 for mine last aug (about). the one i bought looked like it was brand new. it came with the cables for gm (obdI- obdII), ford,, chrysler. and a multiport cable. it also came with the cross refererence manual fo proms and a users manual and a software disk. i purchased separately the set of 4 books (one for each car maker. as an extra i also bought the small printer for it, as it gets hard to remember all the numbers (for me at least) plus i figured it would make it easier to keep a history to compare the differences. i would estimate a total cost of about $600. it also came with 2 domestic primary cart,2 domestic trouble shooting cart, 1 asian primay and 1 asian troubleshooting cart.

at the time i bought mine the cheaper ones on ebay looked like they went thru the war. they probably worked but looks sometimes were enough to keep me from bidding on them. i guess i am lucky that i could afford the extra.

i have had a lot of good experiences buying on ebay. you just have to check the feedback of the seller. i have found sometimes price is not all you go by. the pictures of the unit help and the way the seller describes it can tell you alot. i would take an average price of what they are selling for and go from there. some people overprice things as they think that is what they can get for them. i have seen people list them even now for over a $1000. what it cost new and what you can sell it for is two different stories.

i also want to thank joel (he's the man), as he saved me from buying another scanner that i technically didn't need. i was told by someone that i thought knew what he was talking about, that you could reprogram the prom with it. i can get around on a home computer with pretty good results but the car computers still got me going nuts. i am learning pretty good tho and glad that it bugged me enough about what i say are first generation computers to ask about the other scanner. it might have been nice to have for my escalade (2003) but at this time i dont need it and if i can get software for this scanner it will suffice it.

sorry for the book and hopes this helps. my advice is to get the best deal you can.Thumbs%20Up


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2/17/08 11:22am - Reply: 'scanner question'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19458
Yeah, really, what they are worth really depends on what all you get with them. New, my 2500 cost $2000, with everything they had available at the time(which was almost 20 years ago now). That included the most recent software, all of the connectors, and the manuals. The software updates were KILLING me, tho. About every two years, they would update the software to include the newer cars, both Domestic and Asian. EACH update would be a minimum of $600!!! Now, in the past 4-5 years, they have issued a reprogramable cartridge, so you keep the one main cartridge, and it gets it's update uploaded from their computer. The updates are still ridiculously high.... I stopped updating mine in '99...just couldn't afford it, as I have everything I need to support the vehicles I own. The shops now have scammers, so I use theirs. (Of course, as I mentioned earlier...ours walked off, so we're sorta stuck on the later cars for now.)

So...what's it worth? I've seen some 2500 scammers, with all of the latest software, and all of the accessories, sell for $1000 used. I haven't looked on e-may, so I couldn't take a guess as to what they are selling for there. $500 sounds like a GREAT deal, if you can get one for that, with the software you need, and connectors.
I may have to take a tour thru e-may, and see what is out there....Adams' Apple2008-02-17 09:24:00

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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