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5/25/09 1:44pm - Original Message: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
Phill's Vette Lifetime Member
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Apache Junction, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982,150K,Renegade CFI,Hooker Side Pipes,85 fuel pump,Bilsteins,HD suspension, Aluminum radiator, SharkBar/w 5-Point Restraints. 3:73 gears coming soon.

Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 285
I am replacing my compressor in my 82 with OEM which is R12; to fill with R12 the cost will be about $200+
I do not want to retro fit to R134 as it does not cool as good as R12 and I need all the cooling I can get here in AZ for this daily driver.
  Has anyone heard of Freeze12? It is an EPA approved replacement for R12 and does not need a license to purchase. I have heard that Freeze12 it is a butane derivative and that means it is flammable. My common sense is saying NO to flammability. What do you guys think and has anyone used this Freeze12??

  On a side note, I just installed a quality wiring harness with two relays/fuses and 10/12 gauge wiring to go with my aluminum radiator & dual fans. For the last 16 months I had the fans wired to the OEM fan hookups which was not strong enough to handle the amps of these fans. No burnt wires (Luckly) but way less CFM output than correctly rated wires. The fans now blow at 100% efficiency compared to probably 50-70% while wired into the OEM harness.
FYI: Use the correct gauge wiring especially with aftermarket radiator fans, especially dual fans!

Thanks!
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5/25/09 2:56pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19448
I would recommend you run away from the Freeze 12...Run, Forest, RUUUN!!
My experience with it has been really bad. On the three vehicles I used it in, all three locked the compressor up within a few days. Whether or not it was the Freeze 12 that did this or not, my statistics lead me to believe it was, as I am certified in automotive HVAC repair, and the rest of the system(s) was properly set up. I even talked to one of their engineers about the product before I ever used it, and the answers to my questions were insane....the guy didn't appear to know anything about the stuff, other than "It is a "drop-in" replacement, no problem"...
I have a few cans of that stuff left in my cabinets, and will not use them.
Perhaps Terry(my7T1) can give more info...
My opinion is the stuff is dangerous.
Adams' Apple2009-05-25 11:57:46

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5/25/09 9:46pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
rick d
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williamston, NC - USA

Vette(s):
1969 coupe, 350, m22 trans, ac, black on black,

Joined: 1/19/2006
Posts: 353
Phill, I am a hvac tech by trade,, I agree with Joel about the freeze 12,,I do not agree with you about 134a,, The performance of 134a is within a few percentage points of r12 when it is properly installed,I do not think you will see an appreciable difference in 134a vs r12,, it is not that big of a deal to convert your ride over to 134a,,good luck,,rd

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5/25/09 10:49pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
my7t1 Lifetime Member
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Dorr, MI - USA

Vette(s):
71 Colonnade Hardtop Coupe Torch Red with black interior originally L48 built to push around 360hp

Joined: 8/21/2002
Posts: 2580

I agree with Joel & Rick. I too am certified HVAC fo 36 years. I have never used any so called drop in refrigerant, and never will. They are all a corktail soup of different refrigerants including R134 & R12. Some R22 and some............yes butane. When the government banned the production of R12, a bunch of company's got on the band wagon to produce a replacement. Most if it, if not all of it is crap as far as I'm concerned. I have used only R134 & R12 in my shop, and like Rick says when retro-fitted properly the little if any difference in duct temp will not be noticed.



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5/26/09 1:06am - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6712
Phil, while I have to believe the comments by the three techs above about R-134 I share your concern about converting to it.  When the condenser in "The Beast" needed to be replaced I did the R-134 conversion because of the current cost of the R-12 and its long term lack of availability.  I have to say I'm less than pleased with its performance.  The C4 does have a lot of glass but then so do the '78-82 C3s.  I have also read that to reduce the horsepower drain the ZR-1 had a slightly smaller capacity compressor so that may be a factor in our case.

I still need to get the A/C brought back to life on "BIGBRRD" but haven't decided yet which non-flammable route to take.  A dark colored car needs all the cooling it can get and I'm not fully convinced yet that R-134 will do the job.


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5/26/09 1:20am - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
F4Gary Gold Member
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Grapevine, TX - USA

Vette(s):
1972 LT-1 convertible with factory air.

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 862
Check out Enviro Safe   Es12A.  I just replaced all my hoses and am going back with R12.

http://www.es12a.com/
 
 
(made URL link clickable - Norsky)


Norsky2009-05-25 22:31:00

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5/26/09 9:48am - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
my7t1 Lifetime Member
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Dorr, MI - USA

Vette(s):
71 Colonnade Hardtop Coupe Torch Red with black interior originally L48 built to push around 360hp

Joined: 8/21/2002
Posts: 2580
Here is a Composition Chart of alternative refrigerants. If you notice Freeze-12 is 80% R134a. No where can I find composition of ES-12a, other than it does contain Butane.
 
This is what I'm talkin bout when I say so called drop ins (no such thing) are all a bunch-o-crap.
 
Also if charging your system with R134a be sure the label does not say sealer added. Another whole bunch of problems.
 
My .02
 
 
  1. Many refrigerants, including R-401A (made by DuPont), R-401B (DuPont), R-409A (Elf Atochem), Care 30 (Calor Gas), Adak-29/Adak-12 (TACIP Int'l), MT-31 (Millenia Tech), and ES-12R (Intervest), have not been submitted for review in motor vehicle air conditioning, and it is therefore illegal to use these refrigerants in such systems as an alternative to CFC-12.
    1. See text for details on legality of use according to status
    2. Acceptable Subject to Use Conditions
    • regarding fittings, labeling, no drop-in, and compressor shutoff switches.
    • Unacceptable; illegal for use as a CFC-12 substitute in motor vehicle air conditioners



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    5/26/09 11:35am - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
    corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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    Joined: 7/2/2006
    Posts: 8205
    Stay with R-12 or convert to 134A..........my opinion......let us know how you decide.

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    5/27/09 1:01pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
    Phill's Vette Lifetime Member
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    Apache Junction, AZ - USA

    Vette(s):
    1982,150K,Renegade CFI,Hooker Side Pipes,85 fuel pump,Bilsteins,HD suspension, Aluminum radiator, SharkBar/w 5-Point Restraints. 3:73 gears coming soon.

    Joined: 10/15/2006
    Posts: 285
    Thanks for the excellent info guys!!
    It looks like I will stay with the R-12, eBay has 12oz cans for around $30 each.

    How many cans will I need for my AC tech??

    Thanks!
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    Phill
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    5/27/09 1:47pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
    corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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    [QUOTE=Phill's Vette]Thanks for the excellent info guys!!
    It looks like I will stay with the R-12, eBay has 12oz cans for around $30 each.

    How many cans will I need for my AC tech??

    Thanks!
    Thumbs Up
    [/QUOTE] 4 120z. cans which equal the 3lb. charge. I would recommend getting one extra to charge or to have in case you need a bit more or for future use. You should really only need the 4, if you want to save the additional $30.00. Good luck and KEEP COOL!  corvette440hp2009-05-27 10:48:12

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    5/27/09 2:06pm - Reply: 'R-12 Replacement: Freeze-12??'
    my7t1 Lifetime Member
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    Dorr, MI - USA

    Vette(s):
    71 Colonnade Hardtop Coupe Torch Red with black interior originally L48 built to push around 360hp

    Joined: 8/21/2002
    Posts: 2580
    Lots of good stuff on the net. Thumbs Up Here's a capacity chart and some more good stuff.
     
     
    I really think your making the right choice Phill. The system was designed for R12 and mineral oil. That's what I would stick with. Wink


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