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2/6/11 9:04pm - Original Message: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
 Thought I'd post what's bugging me while watching the game....  I can't get my balancer to go on.  I greased it up real well, started it on by hand making sure the woodruff key was lined up, and then tapped it on a bit more with a tape covered hammer.  Then I put the bolt and big thick round washer in and I thought I'd use my impact wrench to get it on the rest of the way.  No go with that.  Then I put a rod in one of the holes of the flywheel (starter's out) to lock the engine and started torquing that bolt by hand.  I started using my 18" breaker bar and then had to upgrade that with a cheater pipe.  I think the bolt is stripped out now and I'm hoping I didn't screw up the crank.  Also the thick round washer is dished out now.  My plan is to get some new bolts (one a bit longer than what I've been using) and I'll use the plate from the puller I used to get the old one off as the "washer"  (wish I'd have done that before).  Is this the right tactic or do I need to get the Censored thing off and start over - maybe even with a different balancer?  

Where can I get that replacement washer - will parts stores be able to get that for me?  

Every time I work on this car I learn something, make that many things -- some from you guys and some the "hard way".  Thanks for the help.  

Dave


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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/6/11 10:27pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
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The balancer should not be that tough to get on...but you prolly knew that. I would NOT try to put it on any further. I'd take it back off and determine what the problem is.
Is this a new balancer?
Is it correct for a 350?
Why is it off to start with?

I think I would get it back off, and do some measuring to determine if the inside diameter of the balancer is to small...and make sure the crankshaft snout is not rusty, or "buggered up" in any way.
Something stinks in Denmark....


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2/6/11 10:31pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
Sounds like you should have just watched the game and forgot about working on the car!..I hate crap that should be very simple like this that have the potential for disaster..so stop the install process now..remove the balancer and start checking stuff..a small ratchet should be all you need to pull the balancer back on..18 inch long pry bar and a pipe also is just to much..you need a longer bolt..can't really use the stock one..not long enough..you also need to check the threads in the crank..please pray to the threads gods that its not damaged..chances are the key if off just a little and jammed..
Rich

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2/6/11 10:32pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
dskopp
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Oak Creek, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Great White Shark. Red Interior, 350/190hp. PS, PB (SS), A/C CC, T-Tops, Going to remain as Stock as possible. Served three years in Active Duty Army, then Retired Air Force after 34 years! Badger State Vetts Car Club. 175,000 Original miles!!

Joined: 5/21/2008
Posts: 1956
I'm all ears for this one !!!!Exclamation

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2/6/11 11:48pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
Thanks, guys.  I was pretty sure something was amiss.  Now I know for sure...  It's a brand new balancer and yes, it's for a 350.  It looked just like the old one, except it was black instead of orange.  I did notice, however, that it did not start on as easily as the old one.  (I used the old one to drive on the lower timing sprocket and it worked fine)  I took the balancer off because it's rubber ring was poking out and decided to do the pan, oil pump, timing chain etc. all at the same time.  

Yep, back to the garage for me on this one.  I'll take it off (hopefully) and assess the situation.  And I AM praying to the thread gods that those crank threads are OK.  


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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/7/11 12:52am - Reply: 'balancer help'
rod7515 Lifetime Member
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Red Lion, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1974 White 350 Corvette, TH400 Automatic 1972 Tangerine /Go Mango Convertible 383 Stroker, 2004r Automatic

Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 1172
Just from my experience when I went to put on my new balancer on my 350 last summer it wouldnt go. I went back to the guy that did the motor for me and he gave me an installer that out it right on. I forget what it was but I am going to see him either monday or tuesday and I will check with him. Is your balancer new? Mine was. it was super tight. I'll see what I can find out.
Rodney


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2/8/11 2:18am - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
Thanks - yeah, I'd be interested in knowing about that tool.  I think my plan of using the plate from the puller should work fine -- I just need to get a longer bolt.  Glad to know I'm not the only one with the too tight balancer.  I'll get it off one evening this weekend (weekend at the latest) and see if I can figure out what's going on.  

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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/11/11 11:23am - Reply: 'balancer help'
VetteSpecialties
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Mounds View, MN - USA

Vette(s):
70 LT1 coupe, 69 350 HP coupe, 69 390HP 427 coupe, 71 LS5 convert, 85 coupe, 93 coupe

Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1031
I have a balancer remover/installer.  It has a hardened stud that screws way in to the front of the crank.  Then a larger threaded shaft with a flange that lets you bolt it to the balancer, and a big nut to pull it on or off, depending on how you put it together..  Everything is hardened steel, and there are ball bearings to let the parts rotate easily.

That said, your new balancer should not go on so hard.  Assuming there was no paint inside, and you cleaned it with a Scotchbrite pad, I would take it back.

Larry


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2/11/11 2:24pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
manchestershark Lifetime Member
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Equinunk, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1972 conv, 4-speed, 350, 200hp, numbers match, rally wheels, war bonnett yellow w/white top. good condition, nice driver.

Joined: 10/31/2007
Posts: 1901
Ouch  If all is Right with application, try some emery paper. A little fine tuneing should take enough off the surface to lighten the friction. ALSO, check the key and depth for fit. If the key is to tall you can not force the fit. Try fileing the height of it not width. 

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2/12/11 8:23pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
Yep, it looks like it's back to the parts house for me.  Hope I can find that receipt....  I got the dang thing off and there's no damage to the bore or the key-way.  The key on the crank is OK, too.  I used emery paper on the crank and the bore of the balancer (even though I did that the first time), filed the key-way a bit, cleaned and greased everything up, and tried to pop it on.  (Longer bolt this time, too).  Still no-go -- way too tight.  

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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/14/11 12:21am - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
Major setback today.  The installing bolt (Grade 8) I was using broke off inside the crank.  The break is beyond the tip of the crank - I can't even see the bolt.  This could be the tipping point for a rebuild or long block.  I guess I could try to get an extractor in there and get the bolt out, but I don't relish that chore and I think the crank's threads are toast anyway.  If I used too short of a bolt they wouldn't grab and then with the longer bolt I was using I'm assuming it bottomed out too soon and broke as soon as I put some torque on it.  

I'm pretty bummed out.  I thought I'd get this thing on the road this spring.  Probably won't happen now.  The prospect of a new motor is exciting, but that will depend on family finances.  Wife said, "Get the taxes done - then we'll see."  We'll see.Cry


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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/14/11 1:21am - Reply: 'balancer help'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
Man o man o man o man o man! That's terrible ..I'm not going to think about what went wrong but how to fix this..there is two ways...a grade 8 bolt is hard so buy a bunch of good drill bits find dead center and work your way out..I would suggest a Mac set..high speed and warranty for breakage..and tap out the last bit of bolt..hope you get that far..not easy..forget the extractor..if you break off one of those in there you are done. The other is to replace the crank. This stinks..I got more I just can't think straight right now! This really got me peod! I hate this kinda crap! This really stinks.....
Richyostusota2011-02-13 23:30:28

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2/14/11 8:01am - Reply: 'balancer help'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19459
Holy Moly!
Problem is gonna be IF that bolt bottomed out in the crank, then twisted off....it's gonna be next to impossible to ease-out it back out. It's gonna be in there under pressure. Drilling it on center is also gonna be tough, but it would certainly be worth a shot, rather than giving up on it. Drill it out starting with a smaller size, such as 1/4" to start with, then move up as you go, until you get to around 7/16" or so. Then spray some WD40(or whatever you use) down thru the hole and fill up the space. Let that sit for a day, or at least overnight. Then get the best ease-out you can get, and try it. If it doesn't feel like it's gonna budge at all, then it's time to start thinking about a new crank...or engine, if that's the way you're leaning.
I have had several of those bolts break off in the cranks. Some were never to be seen again, but quite a few I got out. A couple even spun farther in while drilling.
It's worth a shot.

btw...If you do get the twisted bolt out, PLEASE buy or borrow the install tool for the balancer...it will certainly make the day go much easier. Most parts houses have one they will rent out, or you could buy one and rent it out to your friends, or sell it on flea-bay(or here, even).
Adams' Apple2011-02-14 06:04:45

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
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"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/15/11 1:53am - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
Thanks for the advice and condolences.  Still kind of in shock.  I'm a little freaked out about trying this, but I may still give it a shot -- not much to lose at this point.  Joel, I was a little confused by your drill bit sizes.  I think the bolt is only a 5/16" shank so I figured I'd start around 1/8" and work up to 1/4" or close.  A guy at work suggested a reverse drill bit - is that a possibility?  

Yep, if I do get this thing out I will for sure use an installation tool next time.  I probably learned my lesson there.  But it might be more likely that I'll be starting a new thread about rebuilding vs. new vs. already rebuilt.  I know I won't be just replacing the crank - not for an L-48 w/ 75K on it.  


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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/15/11 8:14am - Reply: 'balancer help'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19459
A 5/16" crank bolt....on a small block? That might be the problem right there!
Just foolin...
Really, tho...5/16" is smaller than the valve cover bolts...the crank bolt is gonna be a 5/8" bolt, I think...maybe a 3/4". 

The reverse drill/bit might help, but IF the bolt has really bottomed on the crank, it prolly won't make any difference which direction the drill spins...the bolts is still gonna be bound up somewhat. It's definitely worth a shot....you're gonna have to drill a hole in it anyway.
Adams' Apple2011-02-15 06:22:33

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
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"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/15/11 10:56am - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
You must be talking head size - I meant the shank.  It does use a 5/8" socket, but the shank measures 7/16" (I was 1/8" off in my estimation).  I think I'll try the reverse drill/bit plan first to see what happens.  Probably start around 3/16" or 1/4" and work my way out.   

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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/15/11 12:30pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
Good luck on the reverse drill bit..I got a brand new set I haven't used yet if you need some.
Rich

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2/15/11 1:28pm - Reply: 'balancer help'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19459
Who says size doesn't matter?

Yer right tho...a 5/8" socket is usually a 7/16" bolt size. For some reason, I'm thinking the crank bolt is larger that that....shows how long it's been since I did any engine werk!
Whatever...Good Luck with it, and I sure hope it comes out!


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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


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"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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2/16/11 1:32am - Reply: 'balancer help'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
We'll see, I'm hoping, too.  Not sure I'll try this weekend or not.  Might need a longer break from the thing than that.  Rich -- thanks for the offer, not sure you want me ruining or nice new set of bits, though!

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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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2/16/11 1:38am - Reply: 'balancer help'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
They are snap on warranty for life..I breakem just to piss of the guy I bought them from..got to get your money out of them somehow!
Rich

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My first parade at Carlisle 2010
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