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10/18/10 3:47pm - Original Message: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415

Hello All,

This is a continuation of a thread on the C3 Engine Forum. 82 Coolant Sensor Replacement. Up to this point I have been chasing a high idle problem with my 1982 CFI. Up to a year and a half ago, I was driving summers with the vette in New England. I pretty much ran the Air Conditioning during this entire time. It was very humid on Cape Cod.

After moving to Arizona, I get to use the vette year round. It does get cool and even cold (32 degrees F) in the desert. But, during the summer and fall it is still very warm here.

I had the intake manifold gasket replaced in order to pass emissions. The car ran well except there was a high idle; 1100 to 1500 rpm with the AC turned off. I also replaced the in tank fuel pump, filter and the short line that had deteriorated. That took care of surging rpm and a bad hesitation on accelerating. The car was barely drivable when it arrived here in AZ. 

So far, I have replaced about 12 feet of vacuum lines, the O2 sensor – due to code, the EGR valve, hooked up the warm air inlet flapper in the intake snorkel, the coolant temperature sensor and today, the MAP sensor. Unrelated but as a consiquince of changing the coolant temp sensor, I had to replace the upper radiator hose which started leaking when I removed and reinstalled it to get to the coolant temperature sensor. My wife wants me to replace the lower hose too before we trek across the desert. I think that is a good idea. That is on tap for this afternoon.

As a note: The EGR valve was installed but was blocked off by a blank of gasket material. The vacuum lines to the air inlet temperature switch in the air cleaner and to the warm air inlet flapper door were missing – had to be done by a previous owner. Many of the vacuum lines were cracked and leaking. I used carb cleaner sprayed lightly around the vacuum lines and connectors to find the leaks. I also checked around the base of the throttle bodies.

I am just getting to the problem of a sheared pivot bolt on the AC compressor lower mounting bracket. Having the lower radiator hose out of the way will help. So the process goes on. I hope to temporally support the compressor while I remove the lower bracket and get the sheared off threaded end of the bolt out of the threaded mounting bracket and replace the bolt. I'll post some pictures of the process. You see, when that bolt broke I had to turn off the AC and the high idle became a real issue. It was idling at 1700 rpm yesterday. The AC loaded the engine enough to make the idle only a little high.



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10/18/10 6:21pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
I forgot to ask you before but does the engine go into closed loop?
Rich

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10/18/10 10:55pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Rich, I'm not sure what closed loop is.  I have a 195 degree thermostat. The temp indicator goes up to 200-210 and then just sat there - steady through the 30 minute test drive. I didn't notice any real change after the O2 sensor light comes on.

Now today, I replaced the MAP sensor and the bottom radiator hose which while I had the lower AC compressor bracket out was considerably easier. I got the threaded portion of the broken bolt out of the bracket and put a new bolt in place.  That was very hard to get started until I took the top compressor bolt off and supported by hand.  The bracket came out and went back in pretty easily.  Except for a couple of cuts and a few choice words everything went well.

The test drive was very "better" I think.  I don't have to keep the brakes jacked up going down the back roads and it seems to like a nine hundred rpm idle.  When I let it idle in the middle of the test drive.  I was looking for leaks under the radiator hose.  I heard a couple of clicks and the sound of the AIR pump kicking in. The idle went up a bit and then back to 900 rpm.  I was out side the car at the time. On the way back about 20 minutes into the test drive the O2 code hit again.  No noticeable performance change.

So, yes - better. It was dark by the time I finished so the ambient temp was in the mid 70s.  Nice night. We'll see how it does cold in the morning and it should be near the 90s by the mid afternoon. 
 


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10/18/10 11:10pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
Well at least the idle is better..closed loop is when the computer actually will adjust air and fuel ratio on a real time basis..you do need a scanner to see this but is in basic info..well I guess everything is since these cars run on block programs written with if then statements..I will check my old brick system and see if it does anything with the first computer cars..if it does I will have a better idea where to go and why you keep getting the 02 code..are you jumping the ALDL pins 1 &2 and watching the engine light flash or do you have a code puller and what code number is it?
Rich

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10/18/10 11:25pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Rich, I have a reader that plugs into the jack under the ashtray.  It starts by flashing code 12 three times then the code or codes in memory.  The O2 code I have been getting all along is 13.  No other codes have shown up.  I also disconnected the battery to clear the code before running the test drive.  When the O2 sensor came out the business end (in the exhaust flow) did not show black soot. It was a nice brownish like I think we want. The performance is just fine.  Great acceleration, quickness and minimal vibrations now that the compressor is supported and in line with the pulleys.
 

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10/19/10 2:01am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
tb2k82ce Lifetime Member
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Lemon Grove, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1982 C3 Collectors Edition 44000 miles, sat in the sun most of it's life, My wife purchased it for me for fathers day in 2007 from her girl friend that had it for 19 years. It is on the road again. I'm retired but it is now my daily driver.

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 2007
Sounds like mine.  You have changed everything and still high so did I but mine has gotten lower and runs about 700 now. 

I have done the same sprayed cab cleaner around the intake manifold and that is not leaking.  Did you check that also?  It does still sound like a vacuum leak or that you are not going into close loop.

You are in Tucson.  If we were closer, I let you pug my computer into your car and see if it made a difference. 

I balanced my TB's but I do not think that would cause your high idle.  1000 rpm if you do not have any vacuum leaks sounds like it could be an open loop (basically Cold engine idle). 

I believe one way to check to see if you are going into close loop is to start the car and let it warm up if sometime around 185 to 190 degrees the idle comes down you car just went into close loop.  Anyway that is what I unders stand.   Anyone disagree with that?

I found that someone had put in a 165 thermostat in my car and it never got hot enough to go into close loop.  I put a 195 and that and the O2 censor brought mine down to the current idle. 

Just had a thought,  Have you adjusted or checked the voltage on you Throttle Position Sensor?


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10/19/10 6:14am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
I'll note how it starts this morning.  I have a 10 hour day at the airport so, I won't get to fool with it too much today.  The drive to the airport is only about 15-20 minutes. Nothing is close out here.

How do I test the TPS? The connectors are very tight fitting.  The TPSs connectors are black with a Green soft surround and a locking key way.  I guess a paper clip or thin wire could slip in while connected or I could make up some jumpers to trouble shoot. I guess that the voltage should start around 5v and go down or start at 0 and go up to about 5v?

Thanks Gilbert and Rich.  I'll post the results how it runs when the outside temp goes up.


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10/19/10 8:34am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
crossfire1982
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Cramerton, NC - USA

Vette(s):
black 1982 coupe slate gray interior, 350 crossfire, 1985 fuel pump, Steeroids R&P conversion

Joined: 8/22/2006
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The TPS voltage should be 0.525 volts at closed throttle at idle and should raise smoothly in about 0.02 increments to a maximum reading of about 4.85 volts at wide open throttle.
 
Have you tested the IAC motors on the throttle bodies?  If one is not working properly it can be admitting air into the TB when its not supposed to.  If the pintle of the IAC is sticking and not closing against the seat in the TB then cleaning may help. If you do clean the IAC pintle and spring try to keep from getting cleaner into the base of the IAC where the electrical components are.  Clean one IAC at a time so you dont mix them up.  They are identical in construction but the pintle may be a little further out on one than the other due to manufacturing tolerances and you dont want to crush fit a long one into the wrong throttle body and cause damage.
 
Links to Crossfire Injection Vault tech articles which may help you.
 
Making a TPS jumper
 
Testing Idle Air Control Motors
 
Link from Dynamic Crossfire Solutions (makers of the RENEGADE Crossfire intake)
 
If ALL ELSE fails there is a way to adjust "minimum air" settings to the throttle bodies  which should bring the idle down but it requires removing some "block off plates" that the factory has installed on the throttle bodies and then rebalancing the TBs.  I'd save this as a last ditch solution to the problem because there is probably somthing else causing it.


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10/19/10 9:58pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Thanks Chip.  I'll check those TPS this coming weekend.  You know I've tried to join that forum a few days ago.  I have not heard back from the forum manager yet.  I am looking forward to reading what they have on the subject. 

Today on cold start everything worked great.  By the time I got to work it was normal operating temps and 900 rpm.  In the afternoon with the AC on in city traffic it was idling at around 600 rpm and the AC worked while sitting at red lights.  So I'm very happy right now.  It wasn't really warm today so, I'll have to reserve further comment until it hits the mid 90s.  I'm sure it will get that warm again before winter.

For now, I'll just be noting anything out of the ordinary and I'll test the TPS this weekend.  I'll also post some pictures.  I have to resize them so they won't take up a lot of space.  Thanks to all for the help.




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10/19/10 10:46pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
dskopp
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Oak Creek, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Great White Shark. Red Interior, 350/190hp. PS, PB (SS), A/C CC, T-Tops, Going to remain as Stock as possible. Served three years in Active Duty Army, then Retired Air Force after 34 years! Badger State Vetts Car Club. 175,000 Original miles!!

Joined: 5/21/2008
Posts: 1956
Are we all good, or what??
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10/20/10 11:38am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Hello Dan, 
I was up in your area for the EAA Air Venture at Oskosh.  I spent a week at Neilsville (east of Osseo and west of Marshfield)  It was my first trip to Air Venture. It was a real experience.  I flew a Vans RV6A two seater with the owner from Tucson. 

This Oh dark 30, I went out and started up the vette.  It was 63 degrees so this was a cold start - AC and heat off.  It idled smoothly at 750 rpm. Over the next few minutes is rose to 800-950 rpm so, I took it for a ride. I'm very happy.  So on return home I turned on the AC Norm and the idle went to 1100ish and higher when I switched to AC MAX.  I broke the control lever to the AC/Heater shortly after arriving in AZ but, I positioned the vacuum switch to the AC Norm position and just left it there.  I now suspect a vacuum leak at that switch.  Sort of a weird twist.  I did not even consider that. I'll see if Corvette Specialties has one in stock and go from there. 

Never a dull moment in the desert. 
Chip, I just got the email member notification from the Cross Fire folks.  Thanks again.   Keith
 


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10/20/10 1:31pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
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A vacuum leak in the A/C control panel will certainly drive ya nuts, but it is very possible...those things dry out over time, and leak like heck.
If you are still getting an O2 sensor code, you need to address that first, as the ECM may not be going into closed loop. It uses the O2 sensor to determine if the engine(exhaust, actually) is hot enough to begin controlling the fuel/air/ign ratios. The O2 sensor has to get at least 600*F to start working.
Another big issue on Crossfires is the top plate of the manifold, that the throttle bodies bolt up on. Those plates can warp, or the gasket may get spit out, and you'll have idle problems.

I'd be concerned about the O2 code. To set this code, the engine has to be running at road speed, part throttle(cruizing), for at least 5 minutes.
I can e-mail you the troubleshooting info for code 13, if you don't have it...


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10/21/10 12:13am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Hi Joel,     Thanks.  I do not have the troubleshooting info.  I have examined the area around and sprayed carb cleaner all around the bases of the Throttle Bodies and the entire area around the intake manifold.  I found a heater/ac control switch at Larry's Corvette Specialties and it should be here in a few days.  I knew that I needed to replace that but, did not put the two together.  Generally the idle is much better and I feel safer driving the car.  My email is good on the profile page. Thank you.
Smile


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10/26/10 8:37pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
philip
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Marana, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Silver Blue

Joined: 4/8/2010
Posts: 104
if you problems continue I have a scanner and would be happy to meet up with you to help.

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10/27/10 12:10pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Hi Philip, 
Thanks for the offer. 

I have received the AC/Heater control and hope that is the last piece of the vacuum puzzle.  I mostly fly up to Marana for breakfast at the airport.  My wife and I looked at a lot of properties up in that area and Picture Rocks. We are at the south end of Sandario Road near Ryan Field. We can get together at some point and see what the electronics say.  What's in your Nova.  I always liked the mid 70s Novas.

I'll be getting the control installed today.  I also have to replace the failing passenger side hood latch cable today.  I've also been reading the Crossfire Vault articles and that has been very informative.
Keith
 

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10/29/10 11:35pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Well the AC/Heater control unit went in ok.  It is nice to have the AC performing the way it should.  I now can get the MAX AC position and the AC works in town at stop lights!  That is very nice here in Tucson.  It was 94 F today.  After the new coolant and O2 sensor, 12 feet of vacuum tubing, EGR and raiser tube to the air cleaner and the new AC/heater controller the idle is steady at about 900 rpm when hot and 550-600 on cold start. This seems contrary to what I have been reading on the Crossfire Vault site. It should start go up to 1200 rpm then drop to 600-800 rpm.  Anyway the operation of the car is much better. It started out with an idle after cold start at 1500-1700 and would stay there for a long time making driving 15-25 mph a wild ride on the brakes. 

While I was in there I replaced both radiator hoses, removed the lower AC compressor mounting bracket and removed and replaced the sheared pivot bolt and replaced the AC/heater controller and the crossing hood unlatch cable(it was beyond time). The last two items I got from Larry at Corvette Specialties. Very nice doing business with him.  

The O2 code still shows up but, only decelerating. This weekend I'm going to trace the wire from the O2 to the ECM and replace it if I can. Thanks for all the help and support.
 
kwoody2010-10-29 20:48:08

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11/12/10 5:53pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Ok.  Here's more on the problem that still is intermittently troubling my baby. 

I have replaced the AC/Heat control panel and it works just fine.  For the most part, it starts cold and idles great. It starts out at 1000-1200 and then settles down to 700-850 rpm.  Early morning temps are now in the upper 30s and low 40s.  It runs ok for 10-15 minutes.  Once I get on the main road it is 65-75 into town or you'll get run over by the boys headed into town in their pick up trucks.  By the time I get into town the idle is up to 1200 to 1400 rpm and very little throttle is needed to go 45 mph.   This intermittently happens.  I don't get the O2 code till it gets warmer in the afternoon and then only after about 15-20 minutes. I did not find any trouble with the wiring from the O2 sensor. 

I am going to try using my compressor to blow into a vacuum line and see if I can find a leak that I've missed.  I have checked my check valve and it is good so nothing should get blown into the intake.  Has anyone done this before?  If so how'd it work out?
Thanks, Keith
 

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11/12/10 7:06pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
yostusota
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York, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top

Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
I like the idea of using air to find a leak in a vacuum line..but..do not use an air compressor..you only need about 1 lb to 5 lb of air to find a leak..a smoke machine works good for this but you can make a tester yourself..supplies would be..vacuum hose..1/4 inch to 5/16 inch with various vacuum T's and straight ones..a shut off valve..I use a gas tank shut off valve for a lawn mower..a small guage is needed also..one that is gauged from .5 lbs to 10 lbs worked for me..that's it..you T in or connect to a line and blow in it..close the valve and watch the gauge..you will be suprised how easy and cheap this tool is..I use it all the time to find evap leaks in cars..if you find a line that drops pressure start at the other end of the line and work your way to the gauge..use pinch jaws to issolate the leak.  Fun stuff..and works on brand new cars..
Rich


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11/12/10 9:45pm - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Thanks Rich.   I have Sunday off.  I was out trying to adapt my compressor hose to a vacuum line when you posted.  Without the proper nozzle I gave up until next time.  I'll see what I can come up with for Sunday. I should be able to get that stuff at the local hardware store.  I did have a friend suggest that I blow cigarette smoke through it but, I quit smoking this year and that just does not thrill me much and I don't think the vette should start smoking at her age. I tried the headlight bypass switch and they worked after not being run today. (yesterday's vacuum)
I believe there is a check valve at the canister that holds the vacuum separate from the rest of the system. I also had suction at the brake booster too. That bypasses the vacuum check valve I think.  So, I could still have a leak upstream.  When I started it tonight; it idled just fine.  I won't run it again until Sunday. 

Cry I'm so sad to hear the guys up north are putting away their cars. I'm still working on getting the garage project started so I can keep her out of the sun but, I do intend to keep driving her through the winter.Smile
Thanks for the advice.
Keith
 




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11/13/10 9:11am - Reply: '82 CFI Fast Idle Revisited'
crossfire1982
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Cramerton, NC - USA

Vette(s):
black 1982 coupe slate gray interior, 350 crossfire, 1985 fuel pump, Steeroids R&P conversion

Joined: 8/22/2006
Posts: 1094
I almost hate to suggest this but since you have chased this high idle for so long it may be worthwhile to change out the ECM computer itself.  While not cheap, they are readily available.  I had to replace mine about a year ago and got it from NAPA for about $125 and my old core.  You will need to remove your old prom chip from the original computer and install it in the new one.  Just be careful not to bend any pins on the prom while changing it from one ECM to the other.


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