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2/25/15 10:26am - Original Message: 'Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
I have my 1970 coupe just bought and in it's present state I can take great confidence in it being a 454 4-speed car due to the larger fuel line, half shafts, sway bar, and 4-speed hump in floor board. I can't find any evidence of any of these items being replaced. Is there any other tell tale signs of what the seller claims this car to be?  Also, being new to this ownership (I've only owned two other Corvettes and they were both 1977's) is there any way to procure documentation providing confirmation of what I believe this car to have been born with??  I haven't taken delivery of it just yet in case I find it isn't what it's claimed to be.  Thank you for ANY help in this big question I have..Confused


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2/25/15 12:56pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.

Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 362

The first place to start is to identify the engine, is the original engine in the car ??

You need to verify that the numbers match - does the engine number stamped on the block pad match the vehicle's VIN number ??

Second - does the engine suffix code stamped on the block pad indicate a 454 ci.. 4 spd. car ??

The correct engine suffix for a 1970 454 manual transmission car would be either:

CZU - 454ci, 390hp, manual trans or

CRI - 454ci, 390hp, manual trans, ig (transistorized ignition)

In addition to the VIN number on the motor, the same number is stamped into the case of the transmission, usually on the passenger side of the transmission case. This number should also match the vehicle's VIN number.

If the original engine and transmission are not in the car and the build sheet is missing from the top of the gas tank, identification will be difficult since there was no additional engine data found in the VIN on 1970 vehicles, that information was not included until 1972.

Hope this helps, perhaps other members may post addition information to help you out.




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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
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2/25/15 12:58pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
ratray Lifetime Member
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Erda, UT - USA

Vette(s):
1973 coupe. LS4, M-21, DARK SADDLE LEATHER, POWER STEERING, POWER BRAKES, POWER WINDOWS, A/C, AM/FM STEREO, YELLOW ( 952 ).

Joined: 8/1/2005
Posts: 191
The build sheet would be on top of the gas tank. It's kind of hard to reach it, but you can. If it's still there. It was stuck on with tar, and, will tear when you remove it. You need to be careful. To determine if everything is original, compare the vin # with the vin # number decoder here on our site. It's in research. It will tell you how your car came originally. To see if it's numbers matching motor, the number for the motor is on the block, back left side. the transmission is stamped on the transmission. Left side if I  remember correctly. Good luck. and welcome to C3VR.

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2/25/15 1:15pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
The story I have from the seller is that he worked for the original owner back in 70-71 who owned a small car shop. Ordered it with nothing more than the biggest power 454 and 4-speed with power brakes and am radio. Wheel covers in Donneybrook green and black interior. He got to drive it once or twice. Owner spun a main bearing and dealer replaced it with a short block warranty engine using the original top end.. Block casting number is dated 1971 which adds up to that much at least. In the late 90's the sellers brother in-law bought it from the original owner and took it to a local paint shop where they started to do body and paint work.  Sat for a long time and they went out of biz and this second owner took it home and intended to restore it at that point and there it's been sitting for about 5 years. This seller bought it from his brother in-law and decided to restore another Vette and sell this as a project.  I am supposed to be getting the 71 warranty short block with the original heads and intake pretty much all there except the carb. What type of numbers should I be seeing to hope and verify this??  Any help would be great..  Of course there is no build sheet since people who have taken it apart didn't give a damn about things like that.   I'd probably be paying a Hell of a lot more for this if it did have a build sheet with it..

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2/25/15 2:12pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.

Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 362

So you should still be able to verify the original transmission if it had not been replaced - see VIN # info. above.

Regarding the top end, from the information I have, casting numbers should be the following for a 1970 454:

Intake - 3955287 or 3969802 both are aluminum intakes

Exhaust manifolds - 3969869 LH, 3880828 RH

Heads - 3964290

All of the casting dates for the above should correspond (sometime before) your body build date. That can be found on the trim tag on the drivers side front pillar. You should find codes for the original paint color, interior trim code and the body build date - look for a post at the top of this same General Category by Adam's Apple called Trim Tag/Build Date info for specifics.

One more way to confirm a 4 speed car is the transmission cross member. On 4 speed cars it is welded to the frame, on original automatics, it is bolted in.

Finally - the rear axle code may also help verify a BB car. Check the bottom of the case for a three letter code. That code along with the additional numbers stamped will indicate the rear axle ratio and may correspond to available BB gearing. 

If you can, post those letters/numbers and we can help you decipher that information.

Good luck !!!  



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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
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2/26/15 10:06am - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
F4Gary Gold Member
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Grapevine, TX - USA

Vette(s):
1972 LT-1 convertible with factory air.

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 869
ratray said: The build sheet would be on top of the gas tank. It's kind of hard to reach it, but you can. If it's still there. It was stuck on with tar, and, will tear when you remove it. You need to be careful. To determine if everything is original, compare the vin # with the vin # number decoder here on our site. It's in research. It will tell you how your car came originally. To see if it's numbers matching motor, the number for the motor is on the block, back left side. the transmission is stamped on the transmission. Left side if I  remember correctly. Good luck. and welcome to C3VR.


The engine number is on the right front just ahead of the right cylinder head.

If the block has been replaced, it won't be a numbers matching block.


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2/26/15 11:38am - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
ratray Lifetime Member
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Erda, UT - USA

Vette(s):
1973 coupe. LS4, M-21, DARK SADDLE LEATHER, POWER STEERING, POWER BRAKES, POWER WINDOWS, A/C, AM/FM STEREO, YELLOW ( 952 ).

Joined: 8/1/2005
Posts: 191
It's been so long since I checked numbers I am wrong. My youthful indiscretions are probably at fault for my poor memory. Each morning my wife tells me that she is Lisa, I am Ray. Go out there and be good, and, remember your way home!

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2/26/15 2:19pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.

Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 362
Hey Ray, at least you had the build sheet on the TOP of the gas tank, LOL. How is your paint job coming along ?? I wish my current paint looked half as good as your old paint job !!

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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
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2/26/15 2:28pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
ratray Lifetime Member
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Erda, UT - USA

Vette(s):
1973 coupe. LS4, M-21, DARK SADDLE LEATHER, POWER STEERING, POWER BRAKES, POWER WINDOWS, A/C, AM/FM STEREO, YELLOW ( 952 ).

Joined: 8/1/2005
Posts: 191
It's coming John. We are painting it this week hopefully. The old paint looked terrific until I spun it through a barbed wire fence. It is going to be spectacular soon. I probably remembered the build sheet the best, trying to get my hand up there and peel it off without ripping it. I ripped it anyway.

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2/26/15 7:35pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.

Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 362
Hey Ray, that's great news. Make sure you post some pics of the new paint job and stay away from fences !!! While your check book is wide open, are you doing anything else besides the paint ?? I never had much luck with reaching up and around to get a build sheet. I've got a glimpse of a few through the filler hole, but dropping the tank has become automatic if I want any chance of getting one in one piece. Can't believe something we consider so valuable was just a piece of paper stuck to the top of a tank 40+ years ago.

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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
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3/1/15 10:09pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
I have pics of the engine since I ahven't gotten the engine yet.  It has High Perf cast on the block under the timing cover. Is that on all 454's from 70-72?    The date code I got from the seller of the car and engine is T1I29LE   heads he says are 190018941 which seem to make no sense whatsoever..  K1I23LE??  Until I get the car and engine in 3 weeks I am going crzy worrying about what I've bought..  The intake looks like it could be the 3955287 you mentioned.

Intake Pic

(life-sized image modified to link-aapple)


|UPDATED|3/1/2015 8:09:13 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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3/2/15 3:01pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19457
Date code on the engine is:
T= Tonawanda assy plant
11= November
12= 12th of Nov
9= 1969
LE= ?  A closer inspection of the stamp will reveal the actual engine code. LL, perhaps? This would make it an '69  390hp 427 for an automatic trans car.

Looks like the engine(block) is originally a 1969 engine. Head casting # is strange....got to be a mistake on that one.

I DID find an LE code, for a '69 Chev, 427, 335 hp, auto trans, but it's not a Corvette engine.





|UPDATED|3/2/2015 1:01:24 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
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             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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3/2/15 2:14pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Vman73
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Gig Harbor, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1973 L82 4 Speed Coupe - Very original, well documented driver/survivor. 2016 Bend Regional NCRS Top Flight.

Joined: 10/2/2014
Posts: 362
I agree, the intake photo looks like it could be the 3955287, it's hard to make out the first two numbers. Did a little more checking and found my original note that it should be an aluminum intake was wrong, that is definitely cast iron. Can't make out the casting date. Looks like its going to need some clean up and work to remove the broken off bolt at the t-stat housing, be real careful not to break off the other t-stat bolt. Send more pics if you get any.

|UPDATED|3/2/2015 12:14:07 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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John Sigmund
valkman57@sbcglobal.net
NCRS Member 61302
NW NCRS Chapter Member



Duct tape is the new Black !!
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3/2/15 2:58pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
Yeah thank you..  Looks like what I have is a standard 454/427 service block. I have confirmed it being a 2 bolt main and at least the date codes show the correct numbers for a 1970 Corvette. Like I said the owner was supposed to have spun a main bearing while it was under warranty.  I have a pic of the block and pistons in a bin.  I will have to sort out the parts and record "correct" casting and stamping numbers in order to find out just what the collection of what are supposed to be a warranty short block and possibly original bolt on parts. As far as I've learned so far is the intake should be cast iron except for Ls6 engines which would be aluminum. Is the cast iron intake for 1970 390 HP 454's a low profile?  Thing that scares me is that I can't get the casting numbers and date codes from the seller off the heads...

Block Pic

(modified life-sized image to link-aapple)


|UPDATED|3/2/2015 12:58:25 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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3/2/15 3:02pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19457
Are the numbers you're posting for the engine that is in the car NOW, or the blown, supposedly original engine? Confused

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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
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             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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3/2/15 10:39pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
dskopp
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Oak Creek, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Great White Shark. Red Interior, 350/190hp. PS, PB (SS), A/C CC, T-Tops, Going to remain as Stock as possible. Served three years in Active Duty Army, then Retired Air Force after 34 years! Badger State Vetts Car Club. 175,000 Original miles!!

Joined: 5/21/2008
Posts: 1956
I know this is not the place to start a new post but I new figured out how to do it!!  Any talking to a fellow that got a new ECM for his 181 vette??  I am in a conversation with him on facebook and he is confusing me!!  He says he replaced his old ECM with one he got from e-bay but I do not think that he got the correct PROM with it!!  Man!  Now I'm getting almost as smart as Joel!!!!!

Dan da Man in the cold weather land!!!!!
LOL


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(click to see a larger image)
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3/4/15 10:25am - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
The engine in it now is the supposed warranty block. Those are the numbers I've been posting.  Anyone heard of any black or Ontario orange 1970's painted either of those colors from the factory? My 1970 sales brochure shows Ontarion orange as an available color for 1970. In the case of my 70 not having docs with it, would I be devaluing (hope I spelled that correctly) it changing the interior and exterior colors?? Original was Donneybrook green with black interior. I really prefer light saddle, it seems a bit cooler and less claustrophobic inside. Anyone ever seen a Laguna gray with light saddle before?

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3/4/15 1:13pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19457
The numbers posted are NOT for a factory warranty engine. Those ALL had a "CE" in the stamp. What you might have is an engine that a dealer installed("crate" engine, sold over the counter) that they in stock at the time. Makes no difference, really....it's still not the original engine for the car. Hopefully, the spare engine you get WILL turn out to be the original....then you can have it repaired, and re-installed back where it belongs. Thumbs Up

As far as colors, Ontario Orange was not available in 1970...it was only on the '71-'72 cars. The '70 color was called "Corvette Bronze", and was quite a bit darker, iirc. Changing colors will effect the end value, if you decide(or need) to sell, whether an interior or exterior change...or both. This is really a choice you would need to make yourself. It's your car. If a different color combo suits you better, then go for it. Being a big block, '70, 4 speed car, makes it more desirable than a base engined, automatic car...plus, the '70 production total was a lot lower, due to the '69 model running longer because of the strike.
So...the question is, do you plan on keeping this car for quite some time? Plan on having it judged(NCRS/Bloomington) at any point? Or are you looking to flip it and make a few bucks? If you're gunna keep, and enjoy it, then do what''s makes you happy with it. If trying to go the Judging route, then it'll need to be as close to factory as possible for the best results. If ya wanna flip, and make some cash, then all bets are off....you'd just have to see what is selling in the marketplace. Big smile



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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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3/4/15 4:07pm - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
thanks for the insight.  Maybe that LE is actually CE, could possibly just look that way.  I am really hoping it is CE, either way there's no disputing the time frame and 454/427 2 bolt big block. Since the difference would be in the pistons when it comes to horsepower.  No not a 4 bolt but still good for plenty of power (400-450)? And nice stump pulling torque over 450 ft/lbs.  Should be a really fun car with a M21 behind the big block.  Just need some real nice heads, maybe the original ones, so hard to tell unless looking with your own 2 eyes..  Being in the parts profession for 20+ years, I can identify casting and stamping numbers very well.  Color wise, Donneybrook green is definitely NOT a favored color in my eyes. Original or not, being a non documented car and consequently a non numbers matching drive line, I'm going to fair rather poorly on any possible money making ops sticking to the original colors inside and/or out. Just hard to keep the tell tale items on the car in such a condition as to verify originality. I mean, with a thorough ground up restoration all patina proving originality will be removed. Every thing I've been told about big block 4-speed Corvettes of 1970 is truly visible on this car.
    Lots of pictures will help but still possible to clone such a car with amazing detail to parts and numbers. I highly doubt anyone at all would be able to accurately clone a big block 4-speed Corvette with correct part/casting numbers with such items as trailing arms, half shafts, and sway bars.  I do plan on keeping the car for a while and enjoying it, but keeping a constant eye on the value also.
           A difficult feat to accomplish if you're like me and do not want to own just another red Corvette with black interior.

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3/5/15 9:47am - Reply: 'Re: Build sheet missing'
70big4speed
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chesterfield, MI - USA

Vette(s):
1979 L48 Auto red on red 1971 Coupe 350 auto 1970 454 4-speed Coupe sold 1977 350 auto sold

Joined: 2/16/2015
Posts: 32
I guess if I really have a 69 427 335 horse "LE" I can't complain about paying under $800 for it.  Checking factory specs on such an engine, it tells me 470 ft/lbs (10 over an L88) horse power though is a little concerning. I think with converting to a 4 bolt main through correct professional machine work and 11:1 pistons with a nice cam, intake, and carb. Either an original pair of stock HP exhaust manifolds or headers, The amount of power should be more than satisfying.  If I am mistaken on any of these upgrades I would appreciate any input from anyone.  Thank you for any help with this matter of concern. With the original engine and trans long gone as in so many cases of any desirable cars, the next logical step would be having a desirable drive train. 

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