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10/24/11 12:58pm - Original Message: 'Zinc Additive for Oils'
rod7515 Lifetime Member
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Red Lion, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1974 White 350 Corvette, TH400 Automatic 1972 Tangerine /Go Mango Convertible 383 Stroker, 2004r Automatic

Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 1172
What are your thoughts on the amount of Zinc that needs to be in our oil today? Can you add to much and what would the result be? I use Valvoline Racing oil which has Zinc in it in my 74. I plan on using the Brad Penn in my 72 and changing the 74 to that as well. But I always add a 1/2 bottle (about 6-8 Oz) of Lucas ZDDP when I change oil. Someone this weekend was saying to much is a bad thing. If its a lubrication I cant see it being a problem. Your thoughts?
from what Ive seen they recommend 1300 - 1400 PPM's zinc as a minimum but I've never seen a max.

Rodney

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10/24/11 1:33pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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Rod, this is what I found from somewhere else, it looks very informative:                                                                ZDDP 1600 to 1800 ppm is way too much for your every day engine that is expected to last 8 years or more. ZDDP over 1400 ppm (race oil) in your every day engine can cause problems including some etching and corrosion over time, do to different chemical elements that are added to protect race engines when push beyond its limits. These additives can break down considerably over long oil changing intervals. Resulting a change in properties with the addition of small amounts of moisture from constant cooling and heating of the oil over a period of time, compared to nominal running hours when properly used.

I don't know of any API certified, S or C category oils, that has over 1400 ppm. If you find one please let me know!

OE valve trains certainly don't need more than 1200 to 1400 ppm. Check to see if your oil is API certified, if not! You will have to rely on the manufactures claim alone, praying that the non-API certified oil has the correct additives you need. It's a crap shoot!

Just about any oil will run without short term problems in a vintage engine. The difference between the best and the worst oil would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment, and a long list of lab tests, comparing the results. That is what API certification is all about.

Remember API is independent, others that do not carry the API certified logo, maybe selling you snakeoil... It's your engine!!!

Someone told me once that he uses a high quality grade racing oil, and it runs great. He said many of his racing friends use it with no problems. I asked how long have you been using this oil. Little over a year 5000 to 7000 miles, why? I replied most race engines are rebuilt 3 times or more during that time.... How do you know it works well for long term everyday engines? No reply!




|UPDATED|10/24/2011 11:33:01 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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10/24/11 2:31pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Hello,


Since I moved to Arizona, my source for ZDDP dried up.  I've been using the Red STP
oil treatment. Is this a suitable substitute? 

Anybody know of a steady source for ZDDP
It is not in the local auto stores or Wally Mart.

I was getting ZDDP from a guy in NC on EBay.  The last order of 4 never showed up
and he would not return my payment. He jerked me around past the time I had to make
a claim through PayPal.

I think he just sent it to my old address and won't admit it. 

Oh.....  Please don't say DCS.  I will never consider doing (or trying) to do business
with them ever again.  Shame.... I was looking forward using their intake.  NEVER!

Keith




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10/24/11 3:27pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
Gunslinger
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Frederick, MD - USA

Vette(s):
1969 convertible L71 427/435 4-speed black interior

Joined: 9/8/2003
Posts: 3398
There's a number of ZDDP vendors available online...or you can just use a motor oil that contains ZDDP and you need no additives.  There's Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs and a few others.  You can simply add a container of STP (blue container) which has sufficient ZDDP.

If you use a motor oil with ZDDP already in the blend no further additives are needed.

The aftermarket ZDDP additives run about $10 per container...pretty stiff when STP runs less than $3 or buying motor oil with ZDDP.  You can also use GM's EOS which is GM's version of STP.


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Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, c o c k y and in general a malcontent.

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10/24/11 5:46pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Thanks Gunslinger!  I've heard of Brad Penn.  One of my neighbors uses that. 


All the best!

Keith


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10/24/11 5:51pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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kwoody said: Hello,


Since I moved to Arizona, my source for ZDDP dried up.  I've been using the Red STP
oil treatment. Is this a suitable substitute? 

Anybody know of a steady source for ZDDP
It is not in the local auto stores or Wally Mart.

I was getting ZDDP from a guy in NC on EBay.  The last order of 4 never showed up
and he would not return my payment. He jerked me around past the time I had to make
a claim through PayPal.

I think he just sent it to my old address and won't admit it. 

Oh.....  Please don't say DCS.  I will never consider doing (or trying) to do business
with them ever again.  Shame.... I was looking forward using their intake.  NEVER!

Keith



http://www.eastwood.com/zddp-plus-oil-additive-3-pack.html

$26.99...........free shipping. They also have better sales that you can buy it cheaper. Get on their e-mail list.

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corvette440hp
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10/24/11 6:52pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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Posts: 8205

COMP Cams®

Lubrication

Engine Oil Selection

Another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of

engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever

tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and

the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes in the oil

have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically

the reduction of important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in

and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend

oil with the proper level of “ZDDP”, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification.

Recent market trends and misinformation have led to a new and adverse side effect known as

“Overloading on ZDDP”. When overloading on ZDDP, the additive can actually cause blocking

of other important additives, such as friction modifiers or detergent agents. It is imperative that

the ZDDP level is carefully specified and blended to correct concentrations.

 



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10/24/11 8:55pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
tb2k82ce Lifetime Member
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Lemon Grove, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1982 C3 Collectors Edition 44000 miles, sat in the sun most of it's life, My wife purchased it for me for fathers day in 2007 from her girl friend that had it for 19 years. It is on the road again. I'm retired but it is now my daily driver.

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 2007
Too thin mmm I think you are concerned about the wrong issue.  To get a good answer I dug into this subject from the Oil guys perspective a while ago and this is what I wrote down so I could remember it if I ever had to come up with it again.

All oils are designed to have a viscosity of 10 at operating temperature (212F approximately). They are thicker when the engine is cold.  This is why engine wear occurs at startup.
-    -      Mineral based 10W-30 oil has a viscosity of 100 when cold and 10 when the engine is warmed up.
-    -      Mineral based Straight 30 oil has a viscosity of 250 when cold and 10 when the engine is warmed up.
The quicker your car oil get to the viscosity of 10 the better off you are.  Synthetic are a little different
-    -      Synthetic 0W-30 oil has a viscosity of 40 when cold and 10 when the engine is warmed up.
-    -      Synthetic 10W-30 oil has a viscosity of 75 when cold and 10 when the engine is warmed up.
-    -      Synthetic Straight 30 oil has a viscosity of 100 when cold and 10 when the engine is warmed up.

This property along with it actually clinging to the engine parts better is why there is less engine wear using synthetics.
It is also why synthetics leak (less viscosity) more than mineral oils. 
 
Now for ZDDP requirements most people that seem to know oil are not into using additives at all.  They recommend finding oil that has the blend of additives that you need mixed in with it.  The only notable exception is breaking in an engine.

Flat Tappet cams ZDDP recommendations range from 1000ppm to 1800ppm with over 2000ppm considered excessive and could be harmful.    Most recommend 1200ppm to 1600ppm.
 
This is the story on the lowering of ZDDP standards for engine oil.  The standard is set by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC). Prior to 1988 API SF specified a minimum of 1500 PPM P. In 1993 API SG reduced the minimum to 1200 PPM, and it was reduced again to 1000 PPM with the SL specification.
 
A broad wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures started in 2004 following introduction of API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil specifications which set a maximum of 800 PPM and a minimum of 600 PPM P for grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30.

For a good source of oil Brad Penn seems to have the range and numbers.  Keep in mind the higher number mean less oil flow went the engine is cold.  It does not make a lot of difference when it is hot and almost none at all at normal operating temperatures.

It is the startup and sitting around where synthetics may leak (less viscosity) more than mineral oils. 

Also in cold weather Oil separates from it's additives and goes bad.  Spring time oil change is a great idea for you guys that store your cars for the winter and not a bad idea for everyone. (ps less of an issue with synthetics)

Mineral base multi-grade mineral based 5W-20 is close to synthetic 10W-30 in cold thickness and is a good choice for those that want to use mineral based oils.
 
Forgive the long post but there was even more information.

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10/24/11 10:13pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
kwoody
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Tucson, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1982 Black/Tan Leather Build Code C09E Bronze TTop CrossFire Fuel Injection L83 85 Fuel Pump Auto Axle 2.72 Firestone Firehawk Indy500

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 415
Thanks for all the great information. 


I've started a folder to keep stuff like this....  I have some ZDDP on order
and the nearest dealer for Brad Penn is Don's Hot Rod up on the north side
of town.... 

Gil.... I'm gonna check the fuel pressure one more time and then I'll get your
tool back to you.  I ended up with a screw on rig for the regulated TBI and set
the pressure to 14 lbs.  The set-up is only good with the switch on but the engine
not running - switch on runs the fuel pump briefly. Thanks again for the help.


All the Best!

Keith


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10/24/11 10:46pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
rod7515 Lifetime Member
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Red Lion, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1974 White 350 Corvette, TH400 Automatic 1972 Tangerine /Go Mango Convertible 383 Stroker, 2004r Automatic

Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 1172
Wow, some great information you guys have supplied. I have been told that the Brad Penn oil has enough ZDDP without adding any extra but its just a worry that I always add extra. Guess I will stop doing this. However When I start the new engine sometime in the next week I think it would be best to add at least 4 OZ for breakin? I just dont want anything bad happening!
Thanks again for all the information.
Rodney


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10/25/11 7:50am - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
corvette440hp Lifetime Member
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Rod, I would add the GM EOS....................

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=EOS



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10/25/11 9:34am - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
sundevil74
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Leavenworth, KS - USA

Vette(s):
MM Red 1971 T-top,LS5,4-speed, black leather C5 seats, Hooker sidepipes. Previous: 64 Coupe, 65 Roadster L76 / N14

Joined: 1/24/2007
Posts: 426
Not sure where I read it (a few years back), but Shell's Rotella T in viscosity 15W-40 was recommended, especially for older engines.  It is designed primarily for diesel engines and trucks.  I've been using it ever since.  If I can find the article, I'll post it.

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10/25/11 7:25pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
Almond81Vette
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Stanley, NC - USA

Vette(s):
1981, dark blue w/carmel interior. 350 stock, auto tranny, Q-jet carb, ECM box

Joined: 8/9/2010
Posts: 91
  When I had to get a new crate engine installed in June due to the fuel pump cam lobe was toast, my mechanic, Dub at Corvette Etc researched this oil issue and found that Amsoil was the best to go with. I am using 10w-30 Z-Rod since I still have the cat converter on the exhaust. Amsoil does not have to have anything added, it's zinc level is where it needs to be for the flat tap cams.

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3/12/16 8:12pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
the bear
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Martinsville, IN - USA

Vette(s):
1970 corvette stingray monza red black in,350 300 hp automatic th400 all original power steering,air,am fm radio

Joined: 3/11/2016
Posts: 1
I have been getting mine at advanced auto.

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3/12/16 11:50pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
F4Gary Gold Member
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Grapevine, TX - USA

Vette(s):
1972 LT-1 convertible with factory air.

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 869
Just get the Lucas Hot Rod and Classic car oil off of Summit Racing.  Free shipping and no tax.  Easy peasy.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/Lucas-Hot-Rod-and-Classic-Car-Motor-Oil/

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3/13/16 1:40am - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
I use Joe Gibbs Hot Rod, Conventional (there's also a synthetic blend).  Baxter Auto Parts in Portland (just across the Columbia for me and NO sales tax) carries it.  Also easy peasy!

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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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3/13/16 10:02am - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
Redwoman Gold Member
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Bellingham, MA - USA

Vette(s):
1980 loaded red on red. 68,000 original miles. Second owner. Well documented with all original paperwork. NCRS Founders Award 9/27/14. NCRS Top Flight 10/12/14.

Joined: 6/23/2014
Posts: 171
All the info you need to know about motor oil. Read the article by Duke Williams.
http://www.stlouisncrs.org/news_files/St_Louis_NCRS_Chapter_July_2011.pdf



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3/13/16 11:02am - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
dwa175 Gold Member
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oakville, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1979 coupe and now 2007 c-6

Joined: 7/19/2014
Posts: 183
my 1979 corvette  350 ci engine with 93000 miles  stock engine  I am going to use Amsoil for frist time    I always added luces additive  but going to use amsoil for high miles older engines. adam note this does not show a  api rating.  let you know how it all works out   oil today its just hard to know witch oil to use what us said is coorect  time something goes wrong it would be tolate I only out 3000 miles a year on this vehicle  dwa


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3/13/16 8:04pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
Tomtall
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Vette(s):
1973 Coupe -- 454 / 4 speed - Black on Black, Greenwood aftermarket turbo hood, Greenwood GTO style front bumper.American Racing Vector rims.

Joined: 3/5/2016
Posts: 43
sundevil74 said: Not sure where I read it (a few years back), but Shell's Rotella T in viscosity 15W-40 was recommended, especially for older engines.  It is designed primarily for diesel engines and trucks.  I've been using it ever since.  If I can find the article, I'll post it.



Use it myself. Got turned onto it by my son who builds 4 cylinder turbo engines. He gave it high ratings and said the import tunners swear by it. My Big Block likes it also.
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3/15/16 10:05pm - Reply: 'Re: Zinc Additive for Oils'
F4Gary Gold Member
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Grapevine, TX - USA

Vette(s):
1972 LT-1 convertible with factory air.

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 869
Tomtall said:
sundevil74 said: Not sure where I read it (a few years back), but Shell's Rotella T in viscosity 15W-40 was recommended, especially for older engines.  It is designed primarily for diesel engines and trucks.  I've been using it ever since.  If I can find the article, I'll post it.



Use it myself. Got turned onto it by my son who builds 4 cylinder turbo engines. He gave it high ratings and said the import tunners swear by it. My Big Block likes it also.


I read somewhere that 10w40 weights and higher do not have to meet the lower zinc requirements for modern emission systems.

Shell took the zinc out of their oils just like everyone else though.


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