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7/8/15 8:54pm - Original Message: 'Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

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78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
Here's a good one. My 78 C3 with standard 350 now stalls out when coming to a stop (stop signs, traffic lights, any kind of reduction in speed). It runs terrific otherwise (on the road and idling). This recently started, shortly have having Hooker headers and straight pipes installed - it did run ok for a few days. Only occasionally does it seems to "catch" and not stall. but very rarely. Ok I know you're thinking well we now have a new air ratio to deal with as the exhaust is exiting much freer than before. My mechanic thought the same thing, at first. He adjust the carb several times, thought it he had it, but it stall out almost immediately after I picked it up. So he's gone over all the vacuum pressures, all the grounds (because he started thinking it might be an electrical problem). However, nothing has corrected the situation. He's been working on it a couple hours a day for the last week plus. The problem is you can't create the problem in the shop.He's down to possibly the ignition switch (which might be possible - I have a no horn and have traced the problem to steering column as I'm sure a wire is busted in there. I've also had to replace the light switch among other aged parts! (maybe I can get the car on medicare! LOL). Any thoughts anyone run into this before?


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7/9/15 12:49pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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Does it just suddenly shut off, does it run rough and die, or does it feel like something is dragging the engine down until it dies?
Does it fire right back up?
Does it idle well in park/neutral?
I've never seen or heard of installing headers changing the air/fuel mixture enough to cause any problems, especially causing the engine to die.
My first thought is wiring damage for either the install, or heat from the headers. If it was an ignition switch, you would have had the same problem before the exhaust install.
Need more info...Approve

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7/9/15 4:44pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
kstyer Lifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

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1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!

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Also is it an automatic or a stick?

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7/9/15 5:10pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

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78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

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Apple: Thanks for the response, since I got it back from the mechanic I drove it for awhile testing it to see under what circumstances the failure occurs.  Let me answer your questions first.....
It's an automatic
It just dies straight away (as I said earlier it catches itself on a rare occasion and continues to run).
It starts right back up
it idles fine in park, neutral, and Drive (this last one is important) even with my foot on the brake.
Maybe I wasn't fully clear on the headers, they are Hookers and go to a 4" straight pipe on the sides of the car, I have glass pack mufflers installed there (no cat converter). The original muffler system is gone.

Anyway here's what I found almost anytime i put the brake pedal down fast everything just dies, the engine dies and all the gauges go dead, including the amp gauge (remember the ignition is still on). Now I can restart the car, put my foot on the brake and nothing happens in neutral or park and I can put the car in Drive and it's fine to move forward. Driving along at say 35 mph and can quickly pump the brake pedal and make the car almost stall out at will. WEIRD.

I can coast up to a stop sign by using my right foot to rev the engine and my left foot to gently use the brake pedal and the car keeps running. I normally am a one foot (right) driver.

This certainly appears to be an electrical issue of some sort. Either in the harness or the ignition system. I know that a bad brake pedal switch can foul up the turn signals I'm wondering if it can have any other effect....I need to go through the Schematic Electrical book I have for the car.




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7/9/15 5:58pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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Custommilt said:
Anyway here's what I found almost anytime i put the brake pedal down fast everything just dies, the engine dies and all the gauges go dead, including the amp gauge (remember the ignition is still on). Now I can restart the car, put my foot on the brake and nothing happens in neutral or park and I can put the car in Drive and it's fine to move forward. Driving along at say 35 mph and can quickly pump the brake pedal and make the car almost stall out at will. WEIRD.

This is what we needed. I would be checking the brake booster, and the vacuum line/check valve for the booster. When you hit the brake hard like that, it dumps the vacuum out, and it's like having a HUGE vacuum leak on the engine all of a sudden, so it dies.
The gauges doing what they are doing is most likely a result of the engine dying.



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Joel Adams
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7/9/15 7:50pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

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78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
Supposedly the mechanic has checked the vacuum though out the car, but hey who knows.

I'm going to start with the assumption that the booster itself is ok, since there is no change in the cars braking characteristics.

So how do I know if the check valve is bad without buying a new one?

Also I'm not sure I fully agree with you on the gauges, but that's not important.

Thanks for you help!



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7/9/15 10:35pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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Just going on the assumption that the car was NOT doing this before the exhaust work. Wink

It's entirely possible that the brake pedal/linkage is rubbing on the harness under the dash, OR the firewall is flexing enough to cause the fuse panel/firewall pass-thru to loose contact. Do you know if the headlights would also go out when this happens, or could you try to see if they do? Another possibility is that in the process of installing the headers, the wiring on the starter was moved enough to finish off a loose connection for one of the fuse links. Can't say why popping the brakes would excite a loose connection there, but....gotta think out of the box sometimes. LOL  You could check for this by hooking a multimeter, or test light up to the large red wire on the alternator. Should have 12v there all the time, unless there is a problem with the fuse link/wiring from the starter. If you loose voltage there when the car dies, you've located the source of the issue. That same 12v circuit also powers the ignition switch, and just about everything on the inside of the car.....

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Joel Adams
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7/10/15 7:20am - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
lukesvette Lifetime Member
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HOWELL, NJ - USA

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1979, Targa Blue (72 Color), Pace Car rear spoiler, L88 hood, Dark blue factory interior, 525HP 406, HD 700R4, 370 gears,Steeroids, composite rear spring, TT IIs wrapped in T/A Radials.

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What happens when you stab the brake pedal while the car is running in park? I agree with Dr Joel, It does sound like vac and booster related.

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7/10/15 10:08am - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
dwa175 Gold Member
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oakville, CT - USA

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1979 coupe and now 2007 c-6

Joined: 7/19/2014
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just a thought   when installing headers on older car,tight spot   things get moved I think you have more than 1 problem,start at easest ,something gets knocked off buy power booster  it happens,get buy starter wiring this a good spot to look,wire got moved  sure. sometimes you think of things and say that can,t be problem but the easy one are aways skipped because it must be A big problem,many years in car busness  people look for problem that may been there already now your looking for problem,stop ,think what looks out of sorts  the easy ones are always the hardees.stop think you will find causes    take your time,i seen more problems from headers being put on stock cars,something always gets moved.dwaBeer

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7/10/15 10:20am - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
kstyer Lifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

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1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!

Joined: 12/2/2003
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I suspect you are not pushing the brake as hard sitting as when stopping.. all the vacuum may be okay under the hood and work with a given level of brake pressure, but leak severely under harder brake pedal pressure application. I suspect Joel may be on the right track, but try this. Idling in gear push the brake very hard and fast. See if the engine reacts. If it does disconnect the vacuum line to the brake booster and plug this side going to the engine. Hit the brake hard again. If the engine reacted with the line connected but not with it plugged the booster or check valve is the problem. If so, you will find the check valve where the vacuum line connects to the booster. Remove it and blow through it. If you can blow both ways that's the problem. If you can only blow through one way the booster is the problem. If none of this has an effect, flow Joel's lead.

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7/10/15 2:47pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

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78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
Thanks everyone for the input. Got some testing to do, will let you know what happens.

:)



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7/11/15 2:14pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

Vette(s):
78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
UPDATE:
Using the Chilton manual suggested tests, I ran the tests for the Power Brake Booster and check valve, they passed.
However, just because I could get the parts right away I went ahead and changed the Power Brake Booster check valve AND I also changed the Power Brake Filter Canister which is between the Check Valve and the carb ( A feature on the C3's 78 and above).

Didn't change the situation, car still stalls approaching a stop. There was a minor change in that instead of completely stalling out while not in motion, when I step on the brake --- it intermittently stalls and sometimes catches itself and returns to idle. (doesn't matter if I'm in park, neutral, reverse or drive - happens in all cases). Before it would just stall out. I check the hoses and connections all the way to the carb and everything appears solid and tight.


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7/11/15 8:22pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
73shark
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Overland Park, KS - USA

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1973 Orange Metallic Coupe (orig owner), L82, 4 spd (WR), PS, (A/C & PW (I installed from wrecked 73)), leather, AM/FM Stereo, ran with '65 FI unit earlier & will again some day.

Joined: 7/9/2003
Posts: 382
Did you check the check valve before installing and also verify it's in the correct direction?

Does your car have an idle stop solenoid?

|UPDATED|7/11/2015 5:22:26 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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7/11/15 8:46pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

Vette(s):
78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
Yes I did check it (the old one was good too) and it's installed correctly, actually there's only one way because on end is bigger than the other, plus I also replaced the rubber seal on the Booster it goes into and made sure it was seated properly.

I believe I do have a Idle stop solenoid, it's right off the linkage on the driver side of the carb. Also I have AC and AT. But I thought those were on the L82 engine, I have a L48 (350/190hp).

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7/12/15 4:50pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
danascar
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Germansville, PA - USA

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1974 Coupe 358ci 4 speed Black w/Medium Saddle interior w/79 custom leather seats

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Here's a wildshot....does your automatic trans have wires running to it? Had the same problem happen with an old car of mine, not a Corvette but Cavelier. When I would come to a stop the converter would not unlock and engine would stall. If there are wires going to it pull the plug and see if it still stalls...never know. I pulled plug and it did not stall, just didn't have overdrive.

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7/12/15 9:14pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

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78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

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danascar - that's not that much of a long shot. The mechanic that had the car checked a number of connections including some involving the transmission. Everything seemed in order per him.



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7/13/15 12:52pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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The '78 cars dint have the lock-up trans originally. I already considered that, and that's why I asked if it felt like something was dragging/lugging the engine down at a stop. A stuck lock-up is similar to trying to stop a standard transmission car without pushing the clutch pedal down.
A non-lock up 350(which is what the car should have) will have no electrical connections on it anywhere. The lock-up 350 will have a connector on the driver side of the trans, just behind the shifter shaft. IF the car has a lock-up style trans, even without any electrical connection, the lock-up could be applying due to a stuck valve, or a hydraulic leak in the circuit. Even so, this would lug the engine at stops, not shut it down instantly. Thumbs Up
The mystery continues....Exclamation

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Joel Adams
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7/22/15 7:51pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
Custommilt
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The Villages, FL - USA

Vette(s):
78 Black Coupe with Oyster interior and mirrored T tops

Joined: 8/14/2012
Posts: 25
Ok gang: here's what the issue was....believe it or not.
I believe (without reading previous postings) I stated that every time I stopped the car, the engine would stall out. There was certain occasions it wouldn't but they were few and far between.
I had the car towed to Corvette Masters in Maitland, Fl (Orlando). In 15 mins they found the issue!
The ignition wires, under the dash, had dropped down and the brake lever, when I stepped on the full brake, would tug the wires from the ignition and thus shut the car off!! How simple!! If I gently touched the brakes it might not happen, but almost always it would.

If you live near the Orlando area I highly recommend these guys, I spent some time talking with them and they really know their stuff.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond and your suggestions, it 's great to know the community is always here to help!

Next up for me, is taking the steering column apart to put a new lower horn assembly in there......

Milt



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7/22/15 8:59pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
kstyer Lifetime Member
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA

Vette(s):
1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!

Joined: 12/2/2003
Posts: 6410
Joel was on the right track!  
Very glad you found it.


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On the "Tail of the Dragon"
(some day, no strike that, October 2008 it turned red, still in progress!)

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7/22/15 10:07pm - Reply: 'Re: Car stalls out when coming to a stop'
73shark
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Overland Park, KS - USA

Vette(s):
1973 Orange Metallic Coupe (orig owner), L82, 4 spd (WR), PS, (A/C & PW (I installed from wrecked 73)), leather, AM/FM Stereo, ran with '65 FI unit earlier & will again some day.

Joined: 7/9/2003
Posts: 382

Glad you found it.  Surprised that the wire would reconnect when the brakes were released.  Sounds like it was pulling on a terminal and breaking contact and restoring contact when the tension on the wire was released.

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1973 L-82 4 spd

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