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12/30/13 7:53pm - Original Message: 'car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
new fuel pump
new fuel filter
new dist
new cap
new ECM
new coil
new Ignition module
fuel in tank over pick up tube
fuel in carb 
my next thing is doing a carb rebuild???

bad gas????

am i missing something?


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12/30/13 8:05pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
eldredjames Lifetime Member
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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 361
You say it runs on starter fluid?  I presume you are spraying it in the venturi s?

If it were my Edelbrock carb, I'd reset the initial carb settings and see if it would start, then adjust.

If not, maybe you have junk in your carb.




|UPDATED|12/30/2013 6:05:43 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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12/30/13 8:07pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

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1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
i have the orig Quadra Jet carb, ran good then all of a sudden just cranks no start

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12/30/13 8:21pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
eldredjames Lifetime Member
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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 361
Still run on starting fluid?

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12/30/13 8:26pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
eldredjames Lifetime Member
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Temple City, CA - USA

Vette(s):
1969 Daytona Yellow. 350 / Automatic.

Joined: 10/3/2010
Posts: 361
this site sells Quadrajet rebuild kits but also has identifying information, parts and troubleshooting tips.  Some more guys will chime in soon who know more than me.

Jim


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12/30/13 8:51pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
yes i tried key on and i do not see fuel spray i am thinking the carb float is stuck?

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12/30/13 9:02pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
dyoes
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Zachary, LA - USA

Vette(s):
1974 L-48 Auto. Just your basic Vette. GM crate motor w/vortec heads and intake. Crane cam. Scorpion rockers, Edelbrock carb. Lots of parts still in boxes... :(

Joined: 1/27/2013
Posts: 201
It really sounds like a fuel delivery problem.  An engine only needs fuel, air, compression, and spark to fire and if it's running on starter fluid you've got air, spark, and compression.  If you've got fuel in the bowl of the carb, it's just not getting to the engine.  Stuck float, or clogged jets perhaps?  I would check the float, and then go straight to a carb rebuild.  But then again I'm a "ready, shoot, aim" guy.  Someone may have a more simple solution.  

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12/30/13 9:13pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
is it better to rebuild or just buy a rebuilt carb? i am looking to keep it orig and stock

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12/30/13 10:09pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
dyoes
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Zachary, LA - USA

Vette(s):
1974 L-48 Auto. Just your basic Vette. GM crate motor w/vortec heads and intake. Crane cam. Scorpion rockers, Edelbrock carb. Lots of parts still in boxes... :(

Joined: 1/27/2013
Posts: 201
I'm sure that everyone has an opinion, but I'd swap it for an Edelbrock.  You can keep the Rochester to rebuild if you ever want to go back stock again.  But the Edelbrock will probably improve the car's performance and fuel mileage.  However, it's $300 to $400 for a new carb and $20 for a rebuild kit.

I'd definitely get a second opinion before dropping the money, though.



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12/30/13 10:23pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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If you cannot see a fuel spray in the venturi when pumping the accelerator, try tapping on the carb with a small mallet, right at the front of the carb. If the float is stuck, that usually will knock it loose. If that does the trick, you need a new float, at the very least. Quad floats are made from a foam-like material, with an epoxy coating.Over time, they tend to absorb fuel. This usually makes them heavier, and they flood out, but sometimes, especially on cars that sit, they can swell up, and hang. If it happens to hang in the full UP position, it will not allow fuel into the car bowl.
Try the small hammer deal, and see what happens. I like to tap on the very front, center screw of the carb top, since that will normally beak the float loose, whether it is hanging down, or up.
Alternatively, you can also run a small screwdriver(or awl) down thru the vent tube to push the float down.
If it works, you will still need to rebuild the carb with the new float, and gasket kit. Thumbs Up



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12/30/13 11:55pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
HighDesertDave
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Carson City, NV - USA

Vette(s):
Numbers matching 1972 350 4 speed, silver pewter body with blue interior

Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 239
Process of elimination. 1st, Q jets are very easy to rebuild. They have just a few parts that need servicing. 2nd, they are well made effective carbs. The new Edelbroks are nothing more than prettier Q jets.
Now, since the engine runs with fuel (starting fluid) then you have no fuel entering the engine. If it just "stopped" after running well this suggest a clogged circuit.

1st question: are you seeing fuel spray into the primary venturi (front barrels) when you pump the throttle? This is your accelerator pump shot. It pulls its fuel from the main well. If no spray then your not getting any fuel into the carb itself. This would be the stuck closed (up) float or something in the needle jet the float operates. If the tapping does not free up pull the top of the car off to inspect. If yes you have spray from the accelerator pump move on.

2nd step: since you have fuel in the main well your float/needle are working then your idle circuits are clogged. On start up fuel is pull from the main well through some idle feed tubes that are very small in diam. If you had old fuel sitting int the carb these often clog up. You can try shooting some Berrymans B12 in your idle mixture screw ports (after removing screws...turn in, count flats, then remove). This may or may not help as there are air bleeds that may get all the cleaner instead but its worth a shot. If Berrymans b12 won't unclog then no other spray cleaner will. Your main jets are not part of the start up equation and really will not become plugged since the needle jets run up and down within them keeping them clear.

If the carb still does not supply fuel (and your sure your fuel pump is doing its job) then its time to pull the carb top. Be sure to pull the choke rod off the top butterfly and then push the accelerator pump lever pin inwards towards the carb body with a small nail or similar. Tap slowly and drive it just enough to release the lever. This will leave a small amount of space between it and the carb body allowing you to get a flat head screw driver blade behind it...which is how you push it back in when done. The rest of the carb top removal is just screws. The dangly things are your jet needles. you will need to remove the gasket to see down into the main well. It will come up around your power valve (the little spring loaded plastic thing with stiff wires in the middle of the carb body) with a little care. The gasket has cuts in it for just this purpose. Now clean that sucker out!

Dave


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My Christmas present to ME! Bought Sat 11-30-2013. 72, 350 4 spd, Silver with blue interior...Can't you just hear Pablo Cruz playing in the background?

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12/31/13 12:09am - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
HighDesertDave
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Carson City, NV - USA

Vette(s):
Numbers matching 1972 350 4 speed, silver pewter body with blue interior

Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 239
You know I'm being a little dumb here and missed some obvious stuff.

Check your fuel filter...hopefully its a kinda see through deal

Can't see through the filter...might as well move on to your fuel pump. Take the out port hose from your fuel pump (pull from carb or where ever you can access a few inches of flexible hose) and point it into a catch container. Have a helper crank the engine and see if your getting good fuel flow.

Quick carb check: put a length of fuel hose onto the in port of your carb. Blow into the other end. If the float is up (carb thinks its full of fuel and the needle jet is then closed, float up condition) you will not be able to blow at ALL into the hose. If you can blow into the hose then the float is down some and the needle jet/float is not the issue.

Main well full, float up, fuel flow cutoff
Main well low, float at mid range, fuel flows

Dave


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My Christmas present to ME! Bought Sat 11-30-2013. 72, 350 4 spd, Silver with blue interior...Can't you just hear Pablo Cruz playing in the background?

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12/31/13 12:45am - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
daveo76
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Vancouver, WA - USA

Vette(s):
1976 Silver/Firethorn. L48, 4spd. Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.

Joined: 8/25/2005
Posts: 831
I'd stick with the Q-jet.  They have a bad rap in many circles, but they're actually a pretty good design and the beauty of them is they can remain somewhat economical (normal sized primaries) but still be able to handle a decent amount of HP (giant secondaries).  They are not impossible to rebuild for folks with decent mechanical (and organizational) skills and with decent tools.  And a little patience.  I'm proof - no special training or experience with carbs and my car runs pretty darn good with a q-jet that I built.  Not much tuning or messing with it either.  I have two main tricks: 1) use a good book and 2) use a high quality rebuild kit.  For the books there are two that I can recommend: 

 

I have both and they both have helped in different ways.  Roe is all about procedure and actual "how to" but it is not q-jet specific, it covers other Rochesters.  Ruggles is less specific how-to, but there are some important topics in there that Roe does not cover.  

Regarding rebuild kits: you probably don't want to buy one from the parts store down the street -- they are too generic and they don't use the right materials for today's ethanol gas.  I bought mine from Cliff's High Performance (owned by Cliff Ruggles from above).  He personally spoke with me on the phone and recommended jets and metering rods specific to my application.  His parts are definitely more expensive than what you'd get at O'Reillys but they'll work.  I think another shop that can help is the Quad Shop.  

A couple of words about the Edelbrock's.  Most of the time "Edelbrock" refers to the carb that is a copy of the old Carter AFB - a good carb but totally different design than a Q-jet.  Edelbrock also bought the Q-jet design/original dies and tooling etc. from GM and manufactured them for a time in the 90's/00's I think.  They look and work identical to a Q-Jet.  Edelbrock doesn't make these any more.  You can find them on E-bay, but it's probably not worth it.  (don't ask how I know) You might as well start out with your original or a different GM core - much cheaper.  Ruggles' book can help finding the right core.   I was surprised to find out that the best cores are from late 70's chevys and they don't have to be from Vette's.  

One final tip: get the float level right!  Although it is easy to look up what setting you should use, it isn't always obvious how to set it at that number.  (At least it wasn't for me).  My first attempt at building a q-jet turned out not as well and I'm pretty sure it was due to an improper float level.  

Good luck, sorry for the long post!


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1976 Silver/Firethorn.  L48, 4spd.  Original 2 bolt, vortec heads, 9.4:1 CR, Speed Pro Cam: 224/224@0.050, 112 LSA, Eagle Steel Crank.
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12/31/13 1:43pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
dads2vette Lifetime Member
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Ash Fork, AZ - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Red Interior White exterior

Joined: 4/18/2007
Posts: 1038
My personal opinion on quadrajets.  Once they are set up properly, you can run them over with a tank and they stay set.  Holly, I've had problems with them having to be reset after a few hundred miles of abuse.  I have am edelbrock 1406 on my crate engine now and have had them on a couple others as well and like it.  If you're trying to stay original the quadrajet is a good carb.

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12/31/13 3:46pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
Sarge81 Lifetime Member
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WEST SENECA, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Blue Ice Met. w/pearl ghost flames TKO500 5speed. LS1 Swap 3.45 Dana 44.

Joined: 12/3/2001
Posts: 2376
I'm assuming your '81 is all stock. So if it is, that carburetor is one of the first "electronic" carbs GM put on its cars aside from the '80 California 305 vettes. There should be some wires going to the carb. The one on top by the choke horn controls the metering solenoid and plug in one on the side reads the TPS signal. 

I wonder if the MC (Metering Control) solenoid is stuck. Or the TPS (throttle position sensor) isn't functioning. Do you hear an audible clicking noise coming from the carb when you turn the key on?

I had all this stuff on my vette when it was all original. It was troublesome. Thumbs Down  



|UPDATED|12/31/2013 1:46:17 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


____________________________________

GEN III 5.7L "LS6" Engine swap
TKO500 5 spd.
3.54 Dana 44
'69 "N11" Sidepipes
Borgeson Steering Box
Born 8/1981
Sequence #3975




Click here to see more pics of my Vette on CarDomain.


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12/31/13 4:22pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
I agree Sarge81 i see the electronics and i am going with a defective TPS, carb was clean,the only thing i saw was a worn needle that was all, float floats,good fuel pressure, no vac leaks,

NO clicking in carb


|UPDATED|12/31/2013 2:22:55 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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1981 Vette
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12/31/13 7:11pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
Sarge81 Lifetime Member
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WEST SENECA, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Blue Ice Met. w/pearl ghost flames TKO500 5speed. LS1 Swap 3.45 Dana 44.

Joined: 12/3/2001
Posts: 2376
It's been many years, but I remember my car along with other '80's GM electronic Q-jets back in the day would click rapidly when you first turned the key to on. The clicking was the MC solenoid cycling. 

Here is a good article pertaining to the electronic Q-jets. 
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0908_qjet_carburetor_rebuild/

I know the guy in the article, Sean Murphy of SMI isn't a sponsor or vendor here but I must share the fact this guy is good. He was very nice and professional to talk with over the phone. I had him personally do a regular Q-Jet for my last engine in the '81. Which was a GM 350 HO crate engine w/ LT4 Hot Cam. This carb was spot on. I set the A/F mixture screws and the idle and never touched it again. I sold the engine with the carb and the guy put it in a '68 Biscayne wagon. The car ran 8.71 in the 1/8. I'd trust Sean to do another carb for me any day. JMHO. Good luck! Smile


____________________________________

GEN III 5.7L "LS6" Engine swap
TKO500 5 spd.
3.54 Dana 44
'69 "N11" Sidepipes
Borgeson Steering Box
Born 8/1981
Sequence #3975




Click here to see more pics of my Vette on CarDomain.


Lifetime Member #26
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12/31/13 8:47pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
stutrac
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Bethany, CT - USA

Vette(s):
1981

Joined: 11/14/2013
Posts: 32
Thanks for the info, i have decided to rebuild the carb and replace the TPS and the Metering solenoid  all at once for being a orig and un rebuilt carb. it was real clean inside for sitting for 15 years...

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1981 Vette
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12/31/13 10:29pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19457
stutrac said: I agree Sarge81 i see the electronics and i am going with a defective TPS, carb was clean,the only thing i saw was a worn needle that was all, float floats,good fuel pressure, no vac leaks,

NO clicking in carb





SO...can we assume you have the carb off now? Sarge is correct...the mixture control solenoid should click rapidly with the key on. A problem with either the mixture control solenoid OR the TPS would not keep the car from having fuel to start, tho. Might not run perfectly, but it would still fire off and run. The TPS on these turds was a problem even when new....the failure rate was unbelievable. The mixture control solenoids were much more durable.
Since you saw no fuel squirting, and you said the float floats, seems like the accelerator pump, or check ball might be the problem, as far as not getting a fuel stream when pumping the pedal.
Definitely time for a carb rejuvenation. Just make sure when you remove the primary metering rods that you count the number of turns it takes to get the adjusting screw loose....it needs to go back as close as possible to the original setting, unless you are changing the metering rods. Thumbs Up


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Joel Adams
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12/31/13 10:35pm - Reply: 'Re: car will not start runs on starting fluid'
Sarge81 Lifetime Member
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WEST SENECA, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1981 Blue Ice Met. w/pearl ghost flames TKO500 5speed. LS1 Swap 3.45 Dana 44.

Joined: 12/3/2001
Posts: 2376
stutrac said: Thanks for the info, i have decided to rebuild the carb and replace the TPS and the Metering solenoid  all at once for being a orig and un rebuilt carb. it was real clean inside for sitting for 15 years...

Be sure there is no slop in the throttle shafts while your at it. Very common issue with these carbs. The bushing kit will tighten them right up eliminating that small vacuum leak point. 
Keep us posted on how your carb rebuild goes. 



*Just wanted to add a note to the previous mention of Edelbrock's Q-Jet that is no longer made. Those carbs come with "truck" metering rods in them. Which is ok for a stock low revving small block, but not ok for a high powered high revving small block. They will cause a lean condition at wide open throttle. I almost wiped out a engine with one of these Q-jets. Later found out why. Shocked



____________________________________

GEN III 5.7L "LS6" Engine swap
TKO500 5 spd.
3.54 Dana 44
'69 "N11" Sidepipes
Borgeson Steering Box
Born 8/1981
Sequence #3975




Click here to see more pics of my Vette on CarDomain.


Lifetime Member #26
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