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6/25/12 4:24pm - Original Message: 'Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Hi Guys & Gals.  My old Targa Blue Coupe with a 350 CI 200 HP Turbo Hydro 400 has had a shifting problem for the past several years.  Very occasionally it will not shift from 2nd to 3rd.Unhappy  Eventually it always shifts into 3rd and only does it about once a year so I never worried too much about it.

It did it again this spring (would not shift), so before my trip to Bloomington Gold in St. Charles IL., I took it to my mechanic and we did a vacuum test on the shift modulator and it tested good, however, the two hoses had some small cracks so we replaced them.  We also put a can of Sea Foam in the transmission for good luck.  I drove it for several days before Bloomington Gold and it shifted great.Thumbs Up  Problem solved.Smile  NOT!

 Friday morning I left for St. Charles and it worked great until a got to Rockford IL and stopped for gas.  Got back on the Interstate and it would not shift into 3rd.  This time it would not eventually shift into 3rd.  The best i could do was about 45 MPH at 3000 RPM.  Cars and trucks flying past me doing 75.  Not good.Unhappy  Pulled off and let it sit and cool down for about an hour.  Engine water temp was normal, about 200-210.  Air temp was now about 80.
After sitting about an hour, tried it again and now shifted fine.  Drove the rest of the way to St. Charles and it worked great.Thumbs Up

Met Dick and Jill Countryman for lunch and enjoyed Bloomington Gold.  Left St Charles about 4PM and it shifted very sporadically.  Some times it would shift and some times not.  By now the air temp is in the 90s,  but engine temp is still normal.  I got about 30 miles from the home farm near Pontiac, IL and it would not shift at all.  Drove the last leg of the trip in 2nd gear.  45MPH @ 3000 RPM.Unhappy

The next morning, it worked fine, shifted every time.  Until it got hot.  Then it started missing shifts.
So that's where I am now.  Shifts great when cool,  will not shift from 2nd to 3rd when hot.
I know there is a governor in there but I'm not sure what that does.

Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Dean

 

 





|UPDATED|6/25/2012 1:24:23 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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6/25/12 7:57pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
tonytheroofer
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Rochester, NY - USA

Vette(s):
1980 L- 82 fully restored and upgraded.

Joined: 6/12/2012
Posts: 95
Get pan dropped and change filter and fluid , also have then pull governor and clean it as well as check kick down solenoid to make sure it is not sticking and holding you from up shifting , There are also little screen filters on that tranny that plug up have mechanic pull them out .   

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6/27/12 5:48pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449
Dean, even if the problem was with the modulator, the trans would still shift if you wound it up. Since you've already checked the modulator, and repaired the lines, that's prolly not the problem. A bad mod would effect both the 1-2 AND the 2-3 shift, anyway.
It's possible the problem is with the governor. It is located on the right rear of the trans, and has a square cover with 4 bolts holding it on. Take the cover off, twist the governor out, and check the nylon gear on the end of the gov. Check to see that the gear is nice and tight in the metal part of the gov...it should NOT be loose. Also look to see if the gear is "apple cored" in the center, meaning, it is worn in the center, but not at the ends. If you see wear in the center, then that might be the problem. The gear is replaceable, if damaged. Just knock the tiny roll pin out, and pull the gear out. To install the new gear, you will need to fully seat the new gear into the governor body, and drill a hole thru the plastic gear to install the roll pin.
The kickdown solenoid on the valve body could possibly be clogged up, causing a no shift, but that would normally also effect the 1-2 shift.
It's also possible that there is a valve sticking in the valve body when it gets hot, but that's more of a long-shot than anything. The description really sounds more like a governor issue. I would suggest removing the governor first, and checking it out. If no problems are found with it, then it's time to dig a little deeper into the trans, by pulling the pan, and seeing what kind of poop might be in there causing problems. Thumbs Up

A total long-shot idea would be if the kick-down switch(or wiring) above the accelerator pedal is damaged. You might try disconnecting the wire on the left side of the trans as a test for that.


|UPDATED|6/27/2012 2:48:49 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Joel Adams
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6/25/12 11:40pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Tony and Joel, thank you for the replies and suggestions.  I dropped the pan and changed the fluid and filter
about 6 or 7 years ago but it only has about 4000 miles on it since then.  Some years I don't put 1000 miles on it.
The car is still in Pontiac IL at my brothers, so I'll have him and a good friend, who is also an excellent mechanic, check the governor.


Thanks again guys and I'll let you know what we find out.Thumbs Up

Dean
 

|UPDATED|6/25/2012 8:40:02 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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6/26/12 7:27am - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449


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Joel Adams
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6/26/12 7:34am - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Thank you, Joel.

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6/26/12 8:09am - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
manchestershark Lifetime Member
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Equinunk, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1972 conv, 4-speed, 350, 200hp, numbers match, rally wheels, war bonnett yellow w/white top. good condition, nice driver.

Joined: 10/31/2007
Posts: 1895
Thumbs Up  "IF" this is OFF TOPIC, I apologize. I see many problems resolved for co-members and their cars addressed on this site. With the knowledge and abilities of minds that are MORE than willing to assist us, I find GREAT satisfaction in this group of people. THANKS to the ones who make this possible. If you are a new person to the site, STICK AROUND, attend some functions of the C3VR, and enjoy the friendship, fun, and willingness to help each other.Handshake

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6/27/12 2:04pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
I have a guy that I have a lot of confidence in that will remove the governor and check it, but he is hesitant to go to the work of removing it without having a new on on the shelf to put back in.  Therein is the problem.  Can't find one anywhere.
I have tried local parts houses, after market parts suppliers, and Summit Racing.  Not to be found.  The part is obsolete.
He also has a gut feeling that may not solve the shifting problem.  Couple of questions.
Do any of you (JoelLOL) have a source for one or have one laying around?
If the governor does not work, then I'm looking at a transmission re build.

If that's the case, then I think I'd be much better off with a 4 speed trans.  I know many of you have replaced your 3 speed with a 4.  What are your experiences?  What do you have to alter?  Which one do you recommend?  Do you use the same shift stick?
I would appreciate any input.
Thanks in advance.Wink

Dean




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6/27/12 5:48pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449
Dean, the governor itself does NOT need to be replaced. At the most you will need to replace the gear. Gears are available at any trans shop...prolly $3 or so. They would prolly change the gear for you for a few bucks more.
I know it ain't fun going thru a lot of hassle to remove something just to check it, but...it's cheaper than a rebuild.
If you cannot find a trans shop in your area, I can send you a gear. I have a BOX full(50+!) of 700R4 gov gears at home, but the 400 gear has teeth that are angled backwards from the 350/700 gear. I can get the 400 gears, tho, no problem.
The governor is specific to the car, so you really don't wanna just swap a different one in there, unless the weights and springs are exactly the same as your original. I'd say it is worth the effort to at least check the governor before anything else....just my opinion.

Ya know whut? I just remembered..I have a couple of 400 cores at the house too...at least ONE of them should still have a governor in it. It would not have the correct weights/springs for a Corvette, tho....Ouch



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Joel Adams
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7/4/12 1:21pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Just wanted to give an update on my shifting problem on Ole TargaBlue.
My brother and I loaded her up on a trailer and hauled her from Pontiac IL to WI.  Easy trip.
I'm sure that if I were to drive it, after 2-3 hours on the Interstate, at 65 to 70 MPH it would heat up enough that if
I stopped, it would not make the 2-3 shift.  I've had enough experience with that.Unhappy
Right now it shifts great, never misses until it gets hot.Confused

I have talked to a number of trans. shops and guys, and nobody is convinced that changing the governor or gear in the
governor will solve the problem.  Sooo, I'm looking at a trans rebuild. 

I've also looked at and talked to people about a trans. swap to a 700R 4.  That is very expensive and not an easy swap.
Many modifications.  I know many of you have done it, but I just don't put enough miles on that thing to justify it.
If anyone has additional thoughts or information, I would welcome them.
Thank you to all that replied and offered suggestions.Thumbs Up

Dean
 


|UPDATED|7/4/2012 10:21:55 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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7/4/12 3:21pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
KDADDY79
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Dutchess County, NY - USA

Vette(s):
White '79 Corvette. It's a driver.

Joined: 8/27/2007
Posts: 2484
I went with a 700R4 last year. (Up from the TH-350 that came stock in my '79).
Totally worth it! Kind of changes the experience of driving it in that the 700R4 gives a lower 1st gear and then the O.D. gives the lower rpms at highway speeds. I really like the downshift from O.D. to 3rd. at around 50 - 60 mph! 
Worth every dime!
A few folks around here have also swapped their older TH-350 or 400's for the 2004R trans. which also has the O.D. gear. Possibly there were fewer mods with the 2004R.
Let us know what you decide.
Kevin 


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7/4/12 5:27pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449
Dean..does it just STAY in 2nd gear when this happens, or does it pretty much just neutralize?
If it is simply staying in 2nd gear, then I gotta say, with all due respect to anyone you have talked to, it doesn't sound to me like it needs an overhaul....sorry, but that's my opinion. It has to be something with either the governor, or the valve body....


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Joel Adams
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7/4/12 5:59pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Joel, thank you for your reply.  It just stays in 2nd gear.  I respect your opinion and will relate that to the guy
that is going to work on it.
 It's only 100* here in Wisconsin and I'm going to a 4th of July party.
I can't imagine what it's like in Texas.
Stay cool and have a happy 4th.
Dean  

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7/4/12 7:22pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Jaws79 Lifetime Member
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Sykesville, MD - USA

Vette(s):
1979 Corvette Coupe Corvette Light Blue Midnight Blue interior Mirrored Glass T-tops

Joined: 4/27/2008
Posts: 4211
Dean, if you go with the 4 speed my mechanic says the 2004R is just as strong as as the 7004R and you can use the same driveshaft and keep the crossover stays in the same place. It aslso is expensive, though. It is cheapest to rebuild your existing trans, you just have to decide how far you're going to drive it. As for me, when it comes time to repair or replace mine, I'm going with the 4 speed! We go to a lot of shows 2+ hours away so the difference in milage would be worth it!
 
Barry
 
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7/5/12 2:16pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
VetteCountry Lifetime Member
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Belvidere, IL - USA

Vette(s):
1977 Black T-Top ZZ4 5Sp 16in Wheels


Joined: 10/24/2004
Posts: 399
Hey Dean, talked to my trans buddy today. He said samething that Joel told you. Replace governor gear first, cheap and easy. Second possible thing is the valve body. He also said you might think about a trans cooler to help cool it. If your trans fluid doesn't smell burnt, it doesn't need overhaul.

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7/7/12 1:25pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
I had to work Thurs and Fri so have not turned the computer on for a few days.

Hey Dick, thanks for the reply and the suggestions.  The trans fluid does not smell burnt and the fluid is a good red color.
When it does shift into 3rd, it makes a good solid firm shift (whether its cool or hot) so I hope you are right, it prolly doesn't need a rebuild.  I've thought about a trans cooler but wouldn't that just be putting a band aid on it?  If everything is working right, it shouldn't need it.
Joel, what about the valve body?  Can that be removed without dropping the trans?  Can it be repaired or rebuilt with a kit?   When I talk to my guy, I want to at least act like I know what I'm talking about.LOL  I have talked to him about the governor and he has a used one in his shop that has a good gear, so we may just switch the gears.  Thanks for your help and expertise, Joel.  I'm planning on taking the car to him Wed of next week.

Kevin and Barry, thanks for your replies and info on the 700R4 and 200R4.  I would really like a 4 speed trans, but I just don't put enough miles on it in a year to justify it.  Glad it werks for you though.Smile

Hey Mark, Off topic or not, I agree with you 100%.  These guys are great and have been very helpful with my petty little problems.Thumbs Up

Thanks guys, you're the greatest!

Dean


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7/7/12 8:16pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
Adams' Apple Lifetime Member
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449
Dean, the valve body can be serviced without removing the trans. Just dropping the pan gets ya there. You could put a "Shift Kit" in it if ya want, but I would bet that IF there is a problem in the valve body, a good cleaning would correct the problem.
Installing an external cooler will certainly help keep the trans temps down some, but it wouldn't do anything for the shift issue you have. But they are good insurance in the long run from overheating trans problems. Thumbs Up

Oh...make sure the governor gear he has is the same gear...the 400 governor spins backwards from the 350/700, so the gear is different. Looking at the gear from the gear end, the teeth on the 400 gear will go from left to right. The 350/700 gears go from right to left. The governor I posted above is for a 400, if you want to look at how the teeth are angled.


|UPDATED|7/7/2012 5:16:15 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Joel Adams
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7/25/12 6:04pm - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
TargaBlue72 Lifetime Member
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Lodi, WI - USA

Vette(s):
1972 Targa Blue, T-Top, Saddle leather, 350 auto,numbers match, all original except '69 factory side exhaust. Previously owned: 1969 427, 390hp, 4sp, Riverside Gold coupe, factory side exhaust

Joined: 9/25/2007
Posts: 326
Just a quick update on my transmission shifting problem.  We went ahead and rebuilt the transmission.
We checked all possible external components first. Shift modulator, valve body, governor gear and could find nothing
that would cause the kind of problems that I was having.  Sooo Bob, (he's kind of an old school "hot rodder" and transmission specialist) tore it down and completely rebuilt it with all new and updated parts.  The most serious thing he found was one of the rubber sealing rings was badly stretched and miss shaped.  He said it is a wonder that it shifted at all.
He also put in a re-man torque converter.  It wasn't cheap but I'm glad we did it. He said that the clutches, seals and bands were warn enough that they would eventually give me more problems.

I would like to thank all of you that responded for your assistance.
That is why I keep coming back to this place.Thumbs Up

Dean


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7/26/12 8:13am - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
manchestershark Lifetime Member
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Equinunk, PA - USA

Vette(s):
1972 conv, 4-speed, 350, 200hp, numbers match, rally wheels, war bonnett yellow w/white top. good condition, nice driver.

Joined: 10/31/2007
Posts: 1895
Clap SUPER! Hope it works out for the best. Thumbs Up

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7/26/12 9:00am - Reply: 'Re: Shifting Problem'
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19449
Thumbs Up

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Joel Adams
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