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4/14/14 3:44pm - Original Message: 'Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
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I've basically been dead the water for a year on my project.
 
All becuase even though the body spacing measures out good, the front wheels dont line up in the wheel wells.
 
the left front is about 3/4" further back than the right front.
 
I measured from the rear jig holes to the lower ball joints and I am out 1/4" across the frame.
 
This means my centerline is off by 1/8", withing spec.
 
better still.  from the front jig holes I am off 1/16".
 
This tells me the lower ball joint is probably in the right place.  So now I am looking at the upper control arm.
 
Does anyone have a known good upper control arm that I can borrow and use to compare the position?
 
at this point if there is a problem I will probably buy a modern performance replacement but I would rather not spend a bunch of money and have the problem be something else.
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4/14/14 10:01pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
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Duncanville, TX - USA

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#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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 Dead 
If I had one loose, I'd send it to ya Ben....but I don't. Don't know of anyone in the area that has one off to check, either.  Something fishy with what you have, for sure.....just don't know what. Unhappy


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4/15/14 1:20am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
HighDesertDave
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Carson City, NV - USA

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Numbers matching 1972 350 4 speed, silver pewter body with blue interior

Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 239
How are your alignment numbers on the bad side of the car? Castor/camber? Tons of shims in there? I've seen control arm bushings so shot that a front tire would hit the forward edge of the wheel well when in reverse and then center itself in the wheel when moving forward. And even then with the car on jack stands you couldn't push it fore/aft with your hands. They stay tight and need a load to show their slop. Free thinking here.....

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My Christmas present to ME! Bought Sat 11-30-2013. 72, 350 4 spd, Silver with blue interior...Can't you just hear Pablo Cruz playing in the background?

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4/15/14 6:36am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

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A little history here, Dave...this car has been going thru a major resto/renovation for several years. Everything is NEW...
Ben has been trying to figure out this wheel issue for some time, but he only has a finite amount of time to work on the car. There is another thread here with pics of both sides for comparison, along with details on measurements, etc. I'll see if I can find it and post a link. Thumbs Up


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4/15/14 9:38pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
With the bottom of the front fender at 9 3/4" from the ground on both sides.
After I removed all the spacers (appx 3/8") from the rear of the drivers upper control arm, the left front tire is 2 5/8" from the rear of the front wheel well. 
 
The passenger side is 3 1/8" from the rear of the passenger wheel well.  It moved the wheel forward appx 1/4" but it is still out a 1/2" and I doubt it is alignable now as well.  As it was in alignment before I took the shims out.


|UPDATED|4/15/2014 7:38:52 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/16/14 12:03am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
I heard that you can install the control arms backwards and it moves your wheel too far forward.
 
I wonder if maybe the drivers side is correct and passenger is wrong.  I also need a redneck way to measure caster angle if anyone knows of one.
 
I am running 245/60/15 on stock wheels.  If you have a 68-72 and tires this size or at least close (I can always adjust for radius) can you measure the distance from the rear of your fender to the wheel.
 
you need to use a tape measure along the angle of the rocker molding.
 
 
 





|UPDATED|4/15/2014 10:03:39 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/16/14 3:34pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
HighDesertDave
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Carson City, NV - USA

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Numbers matching 1972 350 4 speed, silver pewter body with blue interior

Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 239
Got ya...sounds like the basics have been covered and then some. If all the bolt on parts have been verified correct / undamaged....I might run it through a floor mapping with plumb bob / laser level etc. If the bolt ons are not the prob, I'd be inclined to think the attachment points are off....as in tweaked frame. With the body on, you can check the frame by getting under it, use the bob, framing square and tape measure to find the cars center line, from there create perpendicular lines running across and under the troublesome suspension area. Use the plumb to chart the suspension attachment points onto the floor. Measure and compare each side. Click here to see a pic of a mapped floor before removing the cars front clip. I put tape down to mark up with a sharpie. The outboard tape shows the spindle, ball joint and axle center line locations before removing the bolt ons. It should be roughly aligned for the these marks to have relevance.

(large image modified to a clickable link - Norsky)


|UPDATED|4/16/2014 1:34:35 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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My Christmas present to ME! Bought Sat 11-30-2013. 72, 350 4 spd, Silver with blue interior...Can't you just hear Pablo Cruz playing in the background?

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4/16/14 1:50am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
Have you heard about someone having the the wrong side upper control arm or maybe having a bent one. I replaced the bushings but I am using the control arms that came on the car when i got it With the crappy work that had been done on this car before I have no idea if the part has been replaced It was wrecked on the passenger side. I also measured the distance to the front of the wheel well The nose support isn't in the car so the nose is drooping some and not necessary evenly to left and right But the drivers spacing is 3 1/4" and passenger is 3" So overall driver is 3 1/4" front and 2 5/8" rear Pass is 3" front and 3 1/8" rear

|UPDATED|4/15/2014 11:50:53 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/16/14 9:39pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194

can anyone tell me the wheel spacing on the front wheels of a 68-72 as I described above?  let me know your tire size too so I can adjust the measurements relative to mine.

 
is there a decent frame diagram in the assembly diagram that I am missing.  there is a one page diagram (UPC 2) that is basically useless as I assume the factory received the frames pre built and tested.
 
I have found a body shop with a laser frame machine that is going to check my frame out, their software doesn't go back to 69 so they need definitive frame specs.
 
the gm chassis service manual has a decent diagram but I wanted to know if anyone had a definitive  diagram.  This diagram for example shows the distance between the front frame section but not the distance between the control arm brackets.
 
that spec.  the distance between the control arms is a measurement I will definitely need.
 
 


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4/17/14 9:57pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
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I have 16" rims/tires on "The Toy" but they supposedly have the same outer dimensions as the 15" tires.  I'll get out in the garage tonight or tomorrow night and do some measuring.


(e-mail sent with pics - Thursday PM)


|UPDATED|4/17/2014 7:57:08 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/18/14 11:39am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
persico Gold Member
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Long Valley, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1972 454 Coupe, 4 speed, Targa Blue with blue interior, luggage rack

Joined: 3/21/2007
Posts: 255
I have a 72 with 245 60 15 Goodrich Radial TAs - looks like what you are running  I can measure when I get home today - from the tire to the front of the fender well and from the tire to the back, is that what you need?

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4/18/14 11:57am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
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Duncanville, TX - USA

Vette(s):
#1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas

Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 19457
 As far as swapping the control arms, it can, and has been done(don't ask...Embarrassed). To tell the difference, you'll need to measure from the center on the ball joint, to the end of the control arm shaft(where the bolts hold the bushing in) front and rear. The front should be longer than the rear. It's hard to tell just from looking unless you have both arms side by side, but they are different.

As far as the other measurements, I think Ben is looking for measurements of the frame itself, not how much space there is between the tires and the fenders.
Ben, I looked at the engineering drawings that I have, but they do NOT have the specific point/point measurements you need for the frame machine. I got a couple other ideas, tho, so I'll keep looking. Thumbs Up


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Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    
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(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"
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4/18/14 3:33pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
I actually need both frame measurements and wheel to fender on both sides both front and back

|UPDATED|4/18/2014 1:33:37 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/21/14 11:24am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
persico Gold Member
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Long Valley, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1972 454 Coupe, 4 speed, Targa Blue with blue interior, luggage rack

Joined: 3/21/2007
Posts: 255
Sorry it took so long.  Was having trouble getting the camera to focus.  It looks like I have about 3 1/8" between the wheel and fender flare on front and back.  I am running the 245 60R 15 tires.  Hope that's helpful.  Sorry for massive picture sizes!

PIC 1

PIC 2

(modified large images to links-aapple)


|UPDATED|4/21/2014 9:24:59 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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Mario
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4/21/14 11:26am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
persico said: Sorry it took so long.  Was having trouble getting the camera to focus.  It looks like I have about 3 1/8" between the wheel and fender flare on front and back.  I am running the 245 60R 15 tires.  Hope that's helpful.  Sorry for massive picture sizes!

PIC 1

PIC 2

(modified large images to links-aapple)




did you measure the front gap as well?

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4/21/14 11:44am - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
Norsky Lifetime Member
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Twin Lakes, CO - USA

Vette(s):
SOLD - "The Toy" - 1970 Convertible
SOLD - "The Beast" - 1990 ZR-1 (#682)
"BLKBRRD" - 1978 Trans Am, 400ci/285hp, 4 spd, Black w/black interior, Hurst t-tops

Joined: 1/23/2002
Posts: 6714
How do you need the front gap measured?

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Jim Olson 

"The Toys"...!!!  Save the Wave!
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4/21/14 7:07pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
Norsky said: How do you need the front gap measured?

 
 so far though it looks like appx 3" is the right gap for the back.


|UPDATED|4/21/2014 5:07:37 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|


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4/22/14 6:03pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
persico Gold Member
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Long Valley, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1972 454 Coupe, 4 speed, Targa Blue with blue interior, luggage rack

Joined: 3/21/2007
Posts: 255
Yes pic 1 is the front gap if you look closely at the 3" mark on the ruler you can see the fender flare edge. Sorry it's not the greatest. Both front and rear gaps measured the same .

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Mario
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4/22/14 6:07pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
persico Gold Member
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Long Valley, NJ - USA

Vette(s):
1972 454 Coupe, 4 speed, Targa Blue with blue interior, luggage rack

Joined: 3/21/2007
Posts: 255
Yes pic 1 is the front gap if you look closely at the 3" mark on the ruler you can see the fender flare edge. Sorry it's not the greatest. Both front and rear gaps measured the same .

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Mario
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4/24/14 9:57pm - Reply: 'Re: Wheel spacing woes continue'
cthulhu Lifetime Member
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Hot Springs, AR - USA

Vette(s):
69 Conv #'s Match 427, TKO-600, 3.36HD-Posi, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Lthr, Comp Mag 270 & Pro Rlr Rockers, Edel Air-Gap RPM, BG SD 750 MS, MSD 6AL+Tach Dist+ Blaster SS+Wires, Hly Bl Fuel Pump, K&N, Jet-Hot Hkr Side-Pipes,Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans

Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3194
persico said: Yes pic 1 is the front gap if you look closely at the 3" mark on the ruler you can see the fender flare edge. Sorry it's not the greatest. Both front and rear gaps measured the same .


did both driver and passenger side measure the same?


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