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Topic: Hot start blues

in Forum: C3 Electrical


Hot start blues

Posted: 5/22/05 10:07am Message 31 of 40
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Canada
Joined: 8/6/2004
Posts: 533
Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
Thanks, that's good info.
 
I won't get to it until later this week.
I did went to ACDelco yesterday and got a core replacement starter for 60$ (will get 20 back from my old).
 
What I will do, is replace that and before reconnecting, find the blown fuse link and follow your advises above.
 
I did not try all the accessories, but the back light went out and there was no click on the starter.
 
I'll take a picture, but I think I know what I did wrong; since one of the pin on the solenoid was shorter, I had to bend a little bit the one out of the starter (sorry for the lack of proper words).  The bushing around it was totally dried and fell out.  I can't remember exactly, but that could have been the metal-2-metal connection.
I think I had all my connections right.
 
I will find out when I remove the starter, it will probably be fried in that area.
 
Thank you very much for your info/support.  I'll keep you posted.



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Hot start blues

Posted: 5/22/05 5:24pm Message 32 of 40
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20214
Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
Check out the other post on "Starter problems", and you'll see..................
.......Some replacement solenoids have a short post for this that requires a 'spacer', and some have a long post to begin with. Supposedly, the long post is for the 'high torque' starters, due to the longer field windings
You're probably on the right track now. Hope you get it fixed!!! BUT...if you do have that 'strap' shorted, it would only cause a problem as you're trying to start it, but it wouldn't spark just from hooking up the batt., as there is no juice to that terminal until you turn the key to "start". You might still have other gremlins Adams' Apple38494.7286805556


Joel Adams
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Hot start blues

Posted: 5/23/05 8:17am Message 33 of 40
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Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
Thanks Adam, I have just read the other thread and I think I'm on the right track to find the problem.  I will try what Ken suggested to find where the problem is.
 
Yesterday, I did a quick check on the battery and I was reading 12.62 volts.
 
Later this week, I'll trace the whole line to find where the problem is and ESPECIALLY making sure my ground reads zero after I get the new starter in.
 
I spoke with a guy this weekend who said I could use on compass to find a bad fusable link without removing the carpet.  I'm not sure how to do that, as anybody did that before ?
 



Hot start blues

Posted: 5/23/05 10:24am Message 34 of 40
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA
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Vette(s): 1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!

You hold the compass up to the wiring harness.  When there is power flow the electrical current creates a magnetic field which deflects the compass.  No current no deflection.  More current, more deflection.  Yes it does work.  An inductive amp gauge works better.

Keep in mind, it does not show broken wires, just lack of current flow.  So no flow could mean you are before or after an open point in the circuit.  That can include the circuit just being shut off.  Other live circuits in the harness will make the compass respond as well.




Hot start blues

Posted: 5/27/05 8:14am Message 35 of 40
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Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
Yes, the whole thing is shut; no lights, no horn,...
 
Last night, I checked the voltage at the battery again : 12.6
 
Then I disconnected it, and cleaned the battery ground (attached to the frame). There was a lot of dust. Dry mud looking dust. Came right off easily with a brush. I also changed all the fuses and clean the contacts over there.
 
This is where I am lost : I wanted to verify the voltage at the starter.
I have a mini digital voltage meter. I used the negative on the ground (the ground from the starter bracket to the body) and the positive on the battery terminal (big wire on to the solenoid). My reading is zero. I didn't have anybody to turn the key .
 
Is this a good test or I just wasted my time ?
 
I also started tracing the positive battery cable and I think I did see the fusible link Adam mentioned.  How do I test (and/or replace); just pull the wire out on each side of the rubberish black cylinder (fuse link).
 
I am still putting a new started (ACDelco remanufacture).  But before I do, I am trying to get the light (and horn, windows...) back.
 
Really sounds like a fuse-link, but I am not sure of how to replace/test it with my volt meter.
 
I appreciate all of your inputs.  I am really building knowledge here. This is all new to me but I am hooked!
 
 
 



Hot start blues

Posted: 5/27/05 5:40pm Message 36 of 40
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Joined: 2/13/2005
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Vette(s): '70 Laguna Gray Coupe L46
Get the lastest issue (July 2005) of Car Craft.  There's an article on electrical problems on vehicles from the 60's and 70's.  The hot starter could range from high voltage drop to the soleniod overheated by the close exhaust pipe.  They suggest ( I know this is blasphemy!!!) to by-pass the GM soleniod with a Ford soleniod.  The Ford soleniod can be located anywhere on the firewall or fenderwell.  This article is a great tool to have.  I'm checking every circuit on my 70 Vette to make sure the required voltage drops are at their minimum.


Hot start blues

Posted: 5/27/05 7:09pm Message 37 of 40
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Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
[QUOTE=74-454] This is where I am lost : I wanted to verify the voltage at the starter.

I have a mini digital voltage meter. I used the negative on the ground (the ground from the starter bracket to the body) and the positive on the battery terminal (big wire on to the solenoid). My reading is zero. I didn't have anybody to turn the key .

[/QUOTE]

If you have "0" volts at the large cable on the starter, you have a bad pos. batt. cable from the batt. to the starter. It should be hot (12V+) at all times, regardless of key on or off. Check it again, and make sure! Make sure, also, that your neg. cable is good from the frame to the engine block, as a bad ground conn. would give you a "0" reading, also.
Once you get voltage at the starter,(main cable) you can check the fuse links, but you have to have something to check!! All positive voltage for the vehicle comes off of that connection, so if there's no voltage at the starter, everything will be dead.
Check the fuse-links by testing on each side if the link for 12V+. You should have voltage on each of them on the starter side, even if the link is blown. If it's good, then you'll have voltage on both sides; if not, then just on the starter side. Peel back a small piece of the insulation to get at the wire for testing. Most of the time, you can tell if the link is blown by simply pulling on it. If the wire stretches, the link is blown. I know how frustrating this is, but you have to get voltage to the starter first, before checking anything else. Adams' Apple38499.7997106481


Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    

My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

Hot start blues

Posted: 5/28/05 12:31pm Message 38 of 40
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Canada
Joined: 8/6/2004
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Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
Last night, I told myself that I was not leaving the garage until it works, because this is a very nice weekend, and there is a drive-in at the local vette club Sunday morning.  I am not a member of this club (yet), but I wanted to ride along with them and see for myself if I want to join.  This is a monthly get together and I wanted to be there.
 
So,
First : last night, I got her to start and all the lights are back!
 
Second : I really appreciate all the advises given to me and the time you guys took to provide your input about my problem.
 
Third : I will get new batteries for my camera.  I had two spares, and all 3 failed. I was trying to take pictures of my progress and to better explain what I was seeing, but ... no batteries.. no pictures...
 
Fourth : I am starting to understand the importance and possible severity of the electrical system.  Mine is a little bit old and will need to be refreshed in some area.  In the meantime, I will get a fire extinguisher!
 
Fifth : Here's the whole story, so It can possibly help somebody else down the road :
 
It all started by a hot start problem.  I wanted to replace the factory heat shield with a new one (bigger and 2 layers) and replace the solenoid as well.  I picked up at a local part store a Wells solenoid that has a shorter post.  In order to connect it to the starter, I had to bend (which made the old dried out rubber go away) the starter pin (sorry for the lack of a better term here). I reconnected everything and BOOM (big spark), lights out all over when I reconnected the battery cable (-) as the last step.
 
Took the starter out, inspect the whole positive cable (from battery to starter) for a blown fuse link.  Did not find any, but the rubbers are  a little bit dried out.  I will eventually replace them as a precaution.
 
I then cleaned (with a wire brush) all connections, support bracket and connections to body and block, all on both side, including bolts and the negative battery ground that hooks near the gas tank in the back. I lot of dust and a little rust cam out. (I did not clean the connections the first time).
 
I installed a remanufactured starter (including solenoid) and reconnected everything. (I also replaced all the fuses in the fuse box and found 3 that might have not been blown, but didn't look too good.)
 
AND IT WORKS!
 
I also tried to re-create the no-start condition, and it didn't happen.
I pushed it a little bit on the high-way so I reach 195 degrees and then let her sit for 15 minutes.  It cranked right up!  I guess I will never know if it was the starter or the heat shield, but again, 45$ for a remanufactured starter and not sitting at the gas station for 30 minutes... priceless
 
Conclusion 1 : clean your connections.
 
Conclusion 2 : from the beginning, it could have been many things (worned out starter brush, solenoid spring, too thin of a heat shield), but as I went, I made my problem bigger and expand into other area that were not factors in the first place. I am glad I went for DIY, because it expanded my knowledge.
 
Again, thanks to everybody for all your good inputs and vetteish, I will make sure I get a copy of this article.



Hot start blues

Posted: 5/28/05 3:30pm Message 39 of 40
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Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas



Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    

My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

Hot start blues

Posted: 5/29/05 8:31pm Message 40 of 40
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CUYAHOGA FALLS, OH - USA
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Vette(s): 1975 C3 Red, T-Tops, Black Interior. All I need is time and money! Getting there!
Good news.  Congrats.   


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