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Topic: New Member-Tuning Issue?

in Forum: C3 Engines

New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 9:51am Message 1 of 29
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tulsa, OK - USA
Joined: 8/6/2010
Posts: 7
Vette(s): 74 L82 4 Speed Orange/Saddle
I am a New Member here long time member on CF. I have a Tuning issue that i am looking here for other opinions, because for the life of me i can't get the tune right...Ouch
 
Ok here is the deal, My car is a 74 L82 4 Speed car 73k original miles with the 3:72 rear end I have not been happy with the performance of the L82's Bottom End Torque so some changes were made.
 
Block was line bored .30 over and decked. the rotating assembly was balanced, forged flat tops, Crane Fire Ball II 290H Cam (1800-5200 rpm)-224/224 duration, 107 lobe centers,454/454 lift, Performer aluminum intake, Holley 4160-600 cfm single line, stock heads 882 professionally ported and rebuilt with bronge guides etc, stock rockers, crane matched springs,Mallory unilite mechanical advance electronic ignition factory 20 degree mechanical advance "No Curve" timing is set at 18 btdc idling at 800 rpm, nice even compression across all cylinders, runnning 92 octane.......
 
Here lies the problem the car starts right up no timing drag hot or cold and runs great,no pinging, no stumbles or hesitations, temp stays about 190 drives great on the road 3500 rpm at 70 mph and runs well stop light to stop light when just driving it normal.........PROBLEM is when you try to stand on it from a stop light it doesn't have enough torque to even break the tires loose....this rebuild has about 5,000 miles on it so its broke in well and i am ready to find the right tune the car sounds awesome at idle but the torque performance didn't seem to change from what it was before the rebuild!!!
 
What am i missing here i just can't seem to figure it out, why have i not realized a torque increase etc...
 
All opinions and suggestion welcome!!
dry2010-08-10 12:48:55


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New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 9:59am Message 2 of 29
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20214
Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
If the cam specs you posted are correct, you've got waaay too big of a cam in it to expect a lot of bottom end...302deg of intake duration is massive for a street car, imho. Lower gear in the rear would certainly help, but then it would be a pain to drive on the road.
Also, "massaged" heads doesn't really tell us what was done to them. Were they hogged out(ported)?
You may simply be expecting more than the combo you have can deliver....I'm betting the real power doesn't start coming on until around 3000rpms with that cam....
Perhaps others will have more ideas.
Welcome to C3VR, too!



Joel Adams
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New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 10:45am Message 3 of 29
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tulsa, OK - USA
Joined: 8/6/2010
Posts: 7
Vette(s): 74 L82 4 Speed Orange/Saddle
Correction Here is the CORRECTED CAM INFO!!! 
 
I dug thru all my paper work and found the actual Crane Cam Specs and Here they are "So does this change anything" sweat sweat

Series grind # 3/4 Race 300-06 H (Cam use oval/drag)
SBC Hyd. Rough idle, 283-400CI, good mid-range torque, OK for Auto w/street perf. conv. in 327-up CI, Power brakes req. 99590-1 Vac. res. system, aftermarket carb, int, & exh. advised, compression ratio 9:50 to 10:50 highly advised.
Basic RPM 2200-5200
Dur. @ .050 218* 218*
adv. Dur 300* 300*
Lobe seperation 106*
running clearance hot .000 .000
Gross valve lift .480 .480

My final build sheet reflects a compression ratio of 9.57:1
dry2010-08-12 12:59:43


New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 3:07pm Message 4 of 29
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York, PA - USA
Joined: 5/18/2010
Posts: 1518
Vette(s): 1969 daytona conv. all original 350 350 380 4 sp w/air..and hard top
Wow..sounds like a let down..three things stand out to me..one timing..is 18 degrees advanced at idle to much? Have you a way to check total advance? You need an adjustable timing light to be able to find out..it should be around 30 or so. You may not have enough total advance. Two... What compression is the engine? Not sure if adding new higher compression pistons will help much if the heads have large bowl areas..ie 76cc if I remember right..three..port job..I really hate when people do a port job without a flow bench..I have done many head port tests over the years and have found you lose flow by just taking the casting flash off..it may look nice but really messes the flow of air..it also makes the runners in the heads imbalanced where they are not the same volume anymore..to do a real port job that is volume equal takes more time than money allows..I did a study on this back in the day when camel back heads were easy and cheap to find..I found that it took over 30 hours of tweaking the ports to do a real equal job per head! Sad thing is it only gained 6 horsepower..now that was a let down..what I am getting at is its better to replace the heads with aftermarket ones that have what you want and demand in the first place..I always use the three C's also..cam carb compression..I would also contact the people you got the parts from and see if the are a matched set..most companies offer kits that are dyno tested to do what you want..good luck..
LMK
Rich



My first parade at Carlisle 2010

New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 6:01pm Message 5 of 29
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Germansville, PA - USA
Joined: 1/28/2010
Posts: 859
Vette(s): 1974 Coupe 358ci 4 speed Black w/Medium Saddle interior w/79 custom leather seats. . 1999 C5 Convertible, 6 speed, Atomic orange, Oak interior.
I have a nearly  identical 74 350 4 speed with crate motor, cam, headers, edelbrock intake, holley carb. Runs great. But I have problem getting out of the hole too. Baby it off stop and then stand on it and it runs like a raped ape. It has tons of torque, pulls up steep hills in 4th gear and gains speed with no effort. My thoughts are the gear ratios in the tranny. These cars were made for top end, hence the 160 mph speedo, not blazing hole shots. Something to think about. 


   

DanT

New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 7:44pm Message 6 of 29
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20214
Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
I still think you'd need more compression to run a cam like that. The stock CR was 9:1 on the L82. Flat-tops will only give you another 1/2 point, if that. Anything over a 260-270 deg duration will lose you low end, unless you have the compression to make up for it. It's all about cylinder pressures, and a lot of duration just won't allow that at lower rpms without at least a 10:1 CR, imo.
As Rick says, too, the timing may need to be adjusted to work with all of the mods...18 deg/idle sounds like way too much....10 might be better.
It's gonna take some figuring, and tinkering to get it running better, but it should work out...just maybe not as well as you envisioned. It's still gotta be better than stock, I assume.



Joel Adams
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New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 9:13pm Message 7 of 29
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sonoma, CA - USA
Joined: 8/9/2002
Posts: 784
Vette(s): 72 LT-1 AC coupe,69 l-36 coupe
don't worry if the tires don't bark if your rollin when you stand on it, now if you come out at 2500 from a stop and you don't spin the tires then there is a problem, my guess is your motor is puttin out about 350+ hp, the cam sounds ok, sounds like its running good, if thereis a problem my guess its could be in either the heads or distributor, you have a performance rear gear at 3.73 and probabley you don't want it lower than that for the street, if your heads were just port matched cleaned up and some bowl work around the valve guides thats fine, but if the intake and exh ports were hogged out your low end torque #'s are going to suffer,, your dist has 20deg's meh. adv.built in with no vac. adv. plus your 18 deg's initial gives you a total of 38deg.'s, might be a tick or two too much, but its real close,SB's like to run at about 32-38 deg's total, the question you should be asking is when is my advance coming in, all mech adv. distributors are mostly used for racing, where eng rpm are kept hi  in the power band, like coming out of the hole in drag racing at 2500-3000rpm or in oval track where its 2500 to whatever, over the counter dist's like you have is most likely not set up for the street, people have different opinions on this but your motor would probabley run better with a vac. adv. distributor set up to your eng. specs, your dist. would then be set up with 24 deg.'built in, 10-12deg.'s initial giving you a total of 34-36 total with the vac. adv. adding a little more at off idle for better low end, search     Performance Distributors .com    and it will be explained to ya.   anips2010-08-10 21:50:33


New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/10/10 9:33pm Message 8 of 29
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Hot Springs, AR - USA
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 3236
Vette(s): 69 Conv #'s match 427, TKO-600/.64, 3.36HD-Posi, HT, T/T, PS, PB, PW, SP, Leather, Comp XE264HR & Roller Rockers & Lifters, Air-Gap RPM intake, Holley St Av 770 VS, MSD 6AL+Dist+Blaster SS, K&N, Jet-Hot Hooker Side-Pipes, Steeroids, Al Rad, Spal Fans
im not sure what you mean by no curve timing.
 
can you give us timing at 1000, 1500,2000,2500,3000,3500?
 
also what is vaccum at idle?
 
are you sure it isnt loadign up/stumbling off the line?  i notice you sized your carb prety good..  didnt over do it but how is your idle mixture?  did you adjust idle mixture to maximize engine vac at idle?  are you sure you have no vac leaks?
 
you may not have enough air coming in at low end and it loads up.  you can drill small 1/16th - 1/8th inch holes in the primary flaps to give it more lowend air.  some newer carbs have air bleed adjustment jsut for this problem.
 
3.73 rear end should run very stoutly in low end.



New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/11/10 11:34am Message 9 of 29
Former Member
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tulsa, OK - USA
Joined: 8/6/2010
Posts: 7
Vette(s): 74 L82 4 Speed Orange/Saddle
[QUOTE=anips]don't worry if the tires don't bark if your rollin when you stand on it, now if you come out at 2500 from a stop and you don't spin the tires then there is a problem, my guess is your motor is puttin out about 350+ hp, the cam sounds ok, sounds like its running good, if thereis a problem my guess its could be in either the heads or distributor, you have a performance rear gear at 3.73 and probabley you don't want it lower than that for the street, your dist has 20deg's meh. adv.built in with no vac. adv. plus your 18 deg's initial gives you a total of 38deg.'s, might be a tick or two too much, but its real close,SB's like to run at about 32-38 deg's total, the question you should be asking is when is my advance coming in,    [/QUOTE]
 
The car runs like a striped a$$ ape from about 3k on and pulls strong up to 5500 or so here is some addittional info that may help with some suggestions. I am not necessarily trying to burn rubber and ruin my tires but you would think 60 series radials shouldn't bite this well.
 
Ok, Thanks everyone for the input and opinions let me start by trying to answer some of the response questions.

(1) Yes it is a close ratio 4 speed winds out in 1st gear about 55 mph with a 3:72 posi.

(2) It is a Zero decked blocked but is not using short decked pistons it is using the actual factory .60 over forged replacement pistons.

(3) The 290H Cam was picked due to its nasty sounding old school street profile along with the fact Cranes profile and tech's assured me i could get respectable low end grunt with it.

(4) The car pulls real strong from 3k rpm on to about 5500.

(5) the intake is the performer rpm sorry i left that part out.

(6) Timing static is 18 degree BTDC +4 cam advance and the mechanical advance is factory +20.

(7) Advance is active at 850 rpm from off idle ,All in at 3200 rpm for a total of 42 degrees BTDC.

(8) There are no headers just factory logs into a 2.25" magnaflow system true dual from logs out.

(9) This a Non A/C Car so no accessories other than water pump and alternator.

****Anytime you turn the car off you smell gas--NO LEAKS or DRIPS--And you always have to depress gas pedal one time prior to starting cold or hot***



New Member-Tuning Issue?

Posted: 8/11/10 7:41pm Message 10 of 29
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20214
Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
[quote=dry](6) Timing static is 18 degree BTDC +4 cam advance and the mechanical advance is factory +20.[/quote]

Why is the cam advanced to begin with? That helps in high rpm situations, but it will absolutely kill any low end torque, in my experience. IF in fact the cam has been advanced with a multi-slotted crank sprocket, I would seriously consider putting back to "0".
Unless I'm mis-reading something...



Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    

My Link


(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

in Forum: C3 Engines


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