Topic: Ethanol
in Forum: C3 Fuel, Emission Control, and Exhaust Systems
Already a Member?
Click Here to Login
Not yet a Member?
Click Here to Register for Free!
Well....fuel tank manufacturers are all saying that the gas itself is hard on metal tanks. I just had a long discussion with a local carb guy who said that steel tanks are only good for a limited time with todays gasoline. Plastic tanks, or lined steel tanks are the way to go.
The best automitive fuel filters on the market will filter about 15- 20 microns, while the gas has particulate down to 5 microns. All that crap just stays in the carb and causes problems.
I have an Edelbrock on my '71, and so far, so good.
SPONSOR AD:: (Our Sponsors help support C3VR)
Lifetime MemberManteca, CA - USA
Joined: 11/20/2005
Posts: 3623
Vette(s): 1978,two tone,Metalic Rootbeer & gold
1975 L48 4 speed
In the chain saw / weed trimmer business, most of my repairs are fuel related. Rubber just can't hold up to these chemicals so they've developed polymers that will (yellow fuel line and etc.).
Jimmy B.
Just can't wait to get on the road again. 
Click to see larger views!
Because there are lots of conflicting "facts" out there, I would avoid it if at all possible.
Hopefully, half a tank of the 10% won't hurt anything. I had to do that when I was passing through Utah. It was all the station had.
Save the Wave!
Support the National Corvette Museum
Support the National Corvette Museum
Lifetime MemberPoquoson, VA - USA
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 1023
Vette(s): 73 Conv, Blue-Green/White Top - 454, M21 - Dark Saddle Leather, Power Windows, A/C, Tilt/Tele, AM/FM St. (orig. and sounds like it too).#2 -- 2007 Coupe,3 LT package, Z51 option, Victory Red, Ebony Int. Clear Top.
[QUOTE=dwright]Because there are lots of conflicting "facts" out there, I would avoid it if at all possible.
Hopefully, half a tank of the 10% won't hurt anything. I had to do that when I was passing through Utah. It was all the station had.
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately it is required to be in the fuel here... in my part of Va. 
Lifetime Member #86
USN 1966-1970
WestPac 67-68 Tet I&II
Featured in Corvette Enthusiast Aug 2007 "Shark Attack"
Blue Green *** 454,4 Spd, Dark Saddle Leather, A/C, AM-FM St. (orig), PW, Tilt -Tele Wheel"
(click to see a bigger image)
USN 1966-1970
WestPac 67-68 Tet I&II
Featured in Corvette Enthusiast Aug 2007 "Shark Attack"
Blue Green *** 454,4 Spd, Dark Saddle Leather, A/C, AM-FM St. (orig), PW, Tilt -Tele Wheel"
(click to see a bigger image)
Lifetime MemberGreensburg, IN - USA
Joined: 9/24/2003
Posts: 5188
Vette(s): Previous: 1984 Silver / Charcoal Coupe, 1988 Maroon Coupe / 1989 Artic White Coupe / 2001 Speedway White Roadster / Present:1976 Stingray Black / Black, Auto, 350 slightly modified (355 hp) Luxor Wires Redline Tires. / 1989 Roadster Bright Red...
I ran E85 in my truck over a year ago (back when I used to drive daily) and the milage was terrible. I switched back because the the savings were offset by the lack of milage.
Now it's a no brainer because the E85 is higher than gasoline.
Doesn't make sense to me that we want to go green but market our product at a higher cost. In doing so we blame the higher cost on start up and production costs associated with the fuel plants.
Especially since the plants in most cases are getting tax incentatives and state funding for what else.... start up and production.
Funny years ago when I ran my own business I lowered my cost in order to be more competative and to gain customer marketshare. (it worked)
Oddly enough these guys choose to gouge people up front and make excuses as to why. As taxes paying, registered voting Americans we should speak up and seek alternative ways to stick it back to them and wake them up a little. 1 person may not seemlingly make a difference but several people usually raise awareness. (like the hispanic march on our capital)
Sorry for the little rant, I'll come down from the soapbox.... But you would be amazed at how much clearer it is from up there....
By the way I think the flex fuels ARE the right direction for independance of foreign oil.....
Now it's a no brainer because the E85 is higher than gasoline.
Doesn't make sense to me that we want to go green but market our product at a higher cost. In doing so we blame the higher cost on start up and production costs associated with the fuel plants.
Especially since the plants in most cases are getting tax incentatives and state funding for what else.... start up and production.
Funny years ago when I ran my own business I lowered my cost in order to be more competative and to gain customer marketshare. (it worked)
Oddly enough these guys choose to gouge people up front and make excuses as to why. As taxes paying, registered voting Americans we should speak up and seek alternative ways to stick it back to them and wake them up a little. 1 person may not seemlingly make a difference but several people usually raise awareness. (like the hispanic march on our capital)
Sorry for the little rant, I'll come down from the soapbox.... But you would be amazed at how much clearer it is from up there....
By the way I think the flex fuels ARE the right direction for independance of foreign oil.....
Here are the facts.
kstyer 2008-01-05 11:10:21
The feds required fuel to be oxygenated several years ago to supply more oxygen to more completely burn the fuel during cold operation. It was required in the winter only to begin with, and only in cold areas.
There are two common ways to oxygenate fuel. One is to add MTBE and the other is to add alcohol. There are two forms of alcohol, Methanol and Ethanol.
Alcohol was added my may fuel companies before this to cut the cost of gas. If you bought fuel with 10% ethanol, it was a bit cheaper. But when the feds manadated the oxygenate, the fuel companies charged more for that "Process" which was already met by selling the cheaper fuel, and the price went up. Some areas and fuel companies used MTBE to oxygenate the fuel, but it was actually a bit more expensive the ethanol. However it required less chemical percentage wise. That part was good, but the MTBE was found to be far worse than lead. It is VERY poisionous, and it was found that many people, mostly children, were affected by it's use. There is now a restriction on it's use, but it is not completly prohibited.
Personally I think it should be banned completely. It meets "clean air standards" but adds things to the air cause brain and nerve damage, or can even kill. The things that it adds are not monitored due to the fact engines don't produce those chemicals on their own. It's like catalytic convertors adding sulpher. Sulpher was an issue with diesel fuel, but not gas. Ever notice acid rain started in quanity a couple of years after the cat converter? Hmmmm, same compound. Sulpher Dioxide.
At that time the feds also required all vehicles sold to be compliant to use 15% ethanol. This was in the early 80's. The reason many used MTBE in th first place is due to the loss of fuel energy. Ethanol only has about 2/3 the power of gasoline. So there is a performance loss as well as a mileage loss with ethanol. This was far less noticable with the MTBE.
The reason the race engines use alcohol is simple. You can get almost 3 times as much fuel in the cylinder without fouling the spark plug. So even though it has less energy, due to the much greater volume, there is more total energy available. Racers do not care about fuel mileage.
Any car or gas engine made from the 60's can easily handle 5% ethanol. More than that can be a problem. Any car (not any engine) from the 70's can handle at least 10%, most can handle 15%. From the 80's and up all cars can handle 15%, with an short period of time of 20% in some cases. 20% long term can do some damage in some vehicles. Damage can include any fuel system component, including the tank due to the types of metals used. Alcohol attacks galvanized materials. It does not lube injectors or carb needles.
E85 vehicles will handle up to 85% ethanol, but will get less mileage. The power loss would be very distinct, but most have sensors to measure the amount of ethanol, and the computer makes adjustments to fuel quanity, and spark timing (must be retarted to prevent pinging or EGR must be increased), as well as a few other tweaks to compensate, so most drivers don't notice a big difference, if any, when driving. They will notice a fuel mileage loss. So if the E85 is not cheap enough, it may in fact cost more to use E85. This is the case in some areas. More E85 plants are coming in the near future. Ohio has 8 planned.
The problem is now using other crops to produce the ethanol. All farming products will be affected. Livestock eats the same stuff. That will perhaps increase the cost of meat and dairy products.
If there is enough produced the cost may come down, and E85 could become a viable alternative. But with the track record of the fuel companies, they will likely keep the price high enought to make us break even so they make a larger profit.
Any products made today or from the 80 until now that are designed for fuel use in a domestic car will allow 15 to 20% ethanol without harming the components. This means fuel lines, carb repair components, fuel pumps etc that have been replaced will be fine. If you need to rebuild the carb due to ethanol, you will only have that problem once.
The engine itself does not care up to about 20 or 25% blends. Most engines will take up to 100% ethanol with not damage at all. All of our C3 engine won't be bothered at all, as long as you use a good motor oil. Of course you always have to use a good motor oil, so there is no real change there at all. Many of our style engine have been converter to alcohol but racers with not engine problems.
Some old engines may have a ring problem at very high levels, but even those will do fine at 25%. A trick for non auto engines or very old engines is to add one ounce of diesel fuel to a gallon of gas.
Alcohol is a cleaner. It breaks down and removes oils. The diesel fuel restores the lubrication quality of the fuel. Off road equipment may benefit from the small amount of diesel fuel. Yes it will increase the emissions. Does you snow blower care?
ANY engine from the mid 80's or newer should not have a problem. The equipment makers know that blended gas will be used in their products.
E85 vehicles do use special injectors, fuel pumps, lines etc to handle the high percentage of ethanol. The large percentage will damage these components in a standard carburator or fuel injected vehicle.
Methonal is also used, but can only be tollerated 1/2 as well as ethanol before causing damage. So 5% instead of 10% is the standard blend.
Fuel companies are not always reliable on their blending methods. Some do a very exact blend before the fuel goes into the tanker trucks, but most use the slosh method. That is they put the gas in the truck, the dump the ethanol in on top and allow the movement of the truck to "blend" the mixture. The result is most of the time the blend if fairly good, but you can have as little as 1 or 2%, and I have found up to over 30%, which can do some damage to some vehicles.
When you buy dry gas you are getting alcohol. It does separate the water from the fuel. But that's a problem. In small quanity, it will suspend the water. In larger quanties of water, it will collect the water in the bottom of the tank. If you use isoproponal alcohol (ISO dry gas) it will always suspend the water, allowing it to pass through the system. Much better.
But if you fail an emission check due to high HC or CO, use regular dry gas to oxygenate the fuel. This will reduce the HC and CO emissions. Several bottles in a full tank will usually do the trick.
Former Member
Send PM
Yelm, WA - USA
Joined: 7/12/2007
Posts: 356
Vette(s): 1979 L82 4 speed Scat 383 crank 190 cc Procomp Aluminum Heads 202 160 stainless valves GM Powder metal rods Speedpro H860CP Hypereutectic pistons 280 cam hydralic HEI Pro comp 1.6 roller rockers Mighty Demon 750 Sanderson CC1AP Hedders.
[QUOTE=kstyer]Here are the facts.
If there is enough produced the cost may come down, and E85 could become a viable alternative. But with the track record of the fuel companies, they will likely keep the price high enought to make us break even so they make a larger profit.
[/QUOTE]
Great Post kstyer! The economics of it are shaking out, but it's been a bit of a rough start for companies like Verasun. The price of corn was high and they are counting on increased corn plantings in 08 to help offset the cost. Something I didn't know was that the leftover mash from production is sold as a high protein low fat feed additive for livestock I thought that was a good point to make when people ask what the cows are gonna eat. Verasun is also working on a plant to produce bio-diesel from the leftover mash as well. I think the price of ethanol will come down but it's gonna take a few years to settle down. Having $100 a barrell oil should help too! I don't see anything wrong with subsidies going to American farmers and American companies
A lot better than lining Saudi bank accounts with US dollars.
A lot better than lining Saudi bank accounts with US dollars.
Actually what I am hoping for is that some of the farmers being paid to not grow crops will start growing and fill in some of the extra biomass required to make the product. Yes the mash is a good plus to get a bit more use out of the corn and biomass. I would also like to see the American farmer get some value from this. If in the process we pay less subsidies and simply pay for crops, that cuts some tax payouts as well.
Critics say (guess who they are) that there is only enough farm land, used and unused, to produce only 1/3 of the alcohol needed for fuel. That's fine with me. That means the we only need 2/3 of what we need now. I see that as a very good thing.
I too am hoping the cost will come down when the new plants come on line, and the crops are produced. Notice I said crops. Not all of it needs to come from corn. Saw grass is also an excellent souce. Not all bio mass produces as much ethanol as does corn and saw grass, but ANY bio mass will do. What is now yard waste, and scrap from any other bio source can be used. If we get a bit creative we may be able to exceed that 1/3 by a fair amount. And saw grass will grow almost anywhere. Highway medians????
I think this will not solve any problems, but reduce the need for oil. Combine that with many other technilogies out there and much of the problem can be solved. There is no one answer, but of blend of several.
My MiniVan is an E85 equipped vehicle. When it's available in my area I will use it. Even if my cost per mile is the same. I would much rather see my countrymen get the profits.
Okay, I gotta have the dino fuel available for many years for the Vette. But I don't care what the other vehicles run on, as long as they run well and do the job. And then fuel will be left over for the Vette. 
Years back we had issues with small engine carbs and the field mechs had a he** of a time trying to figure out what was going on. Found out that the gas companies were allowed to "supplement" the gas with additives and it was attacking the components of the carbs, especially the float valve tips. After about 3 months, they were melting. Trying to get the engine manufacturers to warranty was a nightmare, but it did get them to change the material they used to make the carbs.
We've come a long way since then and all manufacturers have stayed ahead of the market. Carbs and fuel line components are staying up with the changes in fuel. Gov regulations has also had it effect. Carb, Tier 1. Tier 2 regs and so on have have mandated changes in the way we store the fuel, get it to the engine, mix it with air and discharge it.
I've had some customers who have complained that E-fuels do not perrform as well as the fossils do. They loose power, can't go as long on a tank of fuel and their maintenance is higher.Most small engine builders won't warranty engines that used E-fuels and it states that in the owners manual, not that anybody reads the thing.
As far as automobiles go, I don't see any problems because manufacters know whats out there and the build with that in mind. You will get less power and less economy, now all we need is less cost. The oil companies have created an enviroment that dictates how we operate. Any body that wants in to their game, will pay the freight. Biomass fuels are coming in to make money first and foremost and everything else is secondary.
It's good for the farmers, producers, distributors and retailers, but not for the consumer. Trickle down effect will catch up with us along the way. Have you ever stopped to think what a cheap alternative to fossil fuels would do to the world economy? If distilleries can produce cheap alcohol why can't these biomass fuels do the same thing. Shiners been doing it for years and years. I guess that means we should be comsuming it and not putting it in our cars.
In the mean time, I will only buy fuel from companies that don't depend on foreign oil, like BP. It may cost a little more, but gives me the peace of mind knowing that I have not bought the bullet that has killed an American because some jerk has a hardon for the US and say his religion tells him to do so. God does not tell people to kill, people tell people to kill. If you don't like me - I don't care. If you irritate me - I'll forgive you. If you mess with me - I WILL bury you.
I will appreciate your vote and thank you for your concern.
Jim (better known as Al)
in Forum: C3 Fuel, Emission Control, and Exhaust Systems
SPONSOR AD: (Our Sponsors help support C3VR)