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Topic: Diesel vs. Gasoline???

in Forum: General Non-Vette Discussion

Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 8:59am Message 1 of 17
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Old Hickory, TN - USA
Joined: 5/26/2003
Posts: 599
Vette(s): 1978 L-82 Silver Anniversary hotrod. /////////////
We got into a gearhead drinking discussion over the weekend concerning why a diesel is significantly more efficient than a gasoline engine. The non-gearhead in the discussion claimed diesel fuel has more energy than gasoline. I claim it's the more efficient high compression design of the diesel engine that extracts the energy from the slower burning diesel fuel.

Can anyone out there settle this before it becomes a gunfight????

Dave


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Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 10:02am Message 2 of 17
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Flanders, NJ - USA
Joined: 1/27/2004
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Vette(s): 1982 Black, ZZ4, Hooker Side Pipes, 3.55 Rear, Rebuilt & upgraded 700R4, All new suspension, brakes, & new Charcoal interior.

I agree wiyh you, Dave. The diesel will run on almost anything so you can't say it's a certain fuel that makes it work well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Dave



 

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Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 10:08am Message 3 of 17
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
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Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
Well, without getting into the highly technical analysis of the two types of fuels, I CAN say my Mercedes sneezle will get me to work & back far more times between fill-ups than any of me gasoline powered vehicles. Sounds more efficient to me. I will say, thi...there ain't ANY Top Fuel cars runnin Sneezle oil for fuel...does that mean it has less energy than gas???


Joel Adams
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Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 10:56am Message 4 of 17
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Old Hickory, TN - USA
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Posts: 599
Vette(s): 1978 L-82 Silver Anniversary hotrod. /////////////
If those are the best explanations I can get, there's gonna be a gunfight!!!!!!!!


Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 12:37pm Message 5 of 17
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BINGHAMTON, NY - USA
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Better make sure ,The OTHER GUY brings a KnifeRolling%20On%20The%20Floor%20Laughing


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Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 2:39pm Message 6 of 17
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North Charleston, SC - USA
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You can make the data fit either argument you want to make. If the argument is really over efficiency then all one has to do is take two like vehicles with the same engine displacement , same gearing, same test weight, and same size fuel tank. The only difference is one burns gas and the other burns diesel. If you drive them exactly the same over the same terrain until the first one runs out of fuel, then theorectically the one still running is more efficient. You can debate all day whether it's the engine or the fuel, but the one still running is the most efficient. It makes the most use of the fuel load. After all they are both internal combusion engines.

Scott



Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 3:54pm Message 7 of 17
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Old Hickory, TN - USA
Joined: 5/26/2003
Posts: 599
Vette(s): 1978 L-82 Silver Anniversary hotrod. /////////////
There is no question that the diesel is more efficient than the gasoline powered mill, the question is WHY????

And Ron.... This IS Tennessee where everyone packs BOTH a gun and a knife....

Dave


Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 6:09pm Message 8 of 17
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The Audi R10 race car that competes in the LMP1 category in the American LeMans Series is a 650HP V-12 diesel--and it's got an enviable record of wins in the Series over gasoline-powered competitors (although an LMP2 class Porsche won at the latest ALMS race in Utah). That doesn't answer whether they're more fuel-efficient than 'conventional' (gas) engines; just that they've proven that a diesel can race--and win--in a world-class motorsports series.

Speaking of which...if anyone else here is a fan of the factory Corvette Racing team, you know just how dominant our own favorite marque has been in the ALMS. In fact, the entire competition in the GT1 category has left the field, having been routinely trounced by the mighty yellow C6 twins. Even the vaunted Aston Martin factory team, which did manage to win a few races after the Vettes were penalized with added weight and intake restrictions, hasn't shown up for most of this season.

So I for one would like to salute Doug Fehan and the Corvette Racing team for proving yet again just how great Corvettes are on the track. They've sent everyone from Ferrari to Saleen to Maserati, Lamborghini and the odd Viper or two home. And with the 24 hour race at LeMans coming up, they promise to put in another great performance this year.


Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 5/21/07 7:29pm Message 9 of 17
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Gasoline has a better burning rate than other fuels. It also allows the car to start quicker in cold weather in addition to providing smoother acceleration and more power. Sneezel fuel, on the hand, is a lower quality fuel burned by sneezel combustion engines. These engines are ignited by the heat of compression rather than spark plugs and generally run more efficiently, last longer, and get significantly better fuel mileage than gasoline engines. However, cars that use sneezel fuel tend to be noisier, slower, and harder to start in cold weather.
Sooo...if you take into consideration the fact that sneezel fuel is basically waste oil, yet it burns more efficiently in a compression-fired engine(ie: uses more of the available energy per gram/gallon) than gasoline, then the ONLY conclusion you can come to is that the sneezel engine is, by design, a more fuel/energy efficient engine.

I am not an engineer, so I couldn't say WHY it is that way, just that it is.


Joel Adams
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Diesel vs. Gasoline???

Posted: 6/1/07 7:14pm Message 10 of 17
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Okay, Here I go.

The gas and diesel engine and fuel are both very different critters.
First the fuel itself.  To understand you first have to know a bit about crude processing.  All crude is put into what amounts to a larger pressure cooker tank.  As it is heated it seperates into several layers.  The thinest layer at the top the thickest at the bottom.  This is a process know as "Cracking" and the result is rated on a Cracking scale.
 
The very thin stuff on top is your solvents.  Very thin liquid that lights easily and burns very fast and very hot.
Next is gasoline,  further down the cracking scale we find jet fuel, kerosene, and home heating oil.  Drop a bit more and diesel fuel is very similar to to home heating oil.  Going further down the scale you get to creosote and finally tar.
 
At the bottom of the scale is a very thick concentrated mixture that will burn, but burn slowly.
 
Now another explanation before going on.   There is a huge difference between temperature and heat.   Temperature is a volume measured in BTU (Brittish Thermal Unit).  Heat is an intensity measured in degrees.  A shop heater can warm a large area with a large volume of heat, but the temperature is not that high.  Perhaps 140 degrees.  On the other hand the cutting torch in the shop reached up to 9000 degrees F. at peak, but delivers a small amount of BTUs.   If you try to cut steel with the heater, it will never happen, and the torch won't heat the shop.
 
Now  back to fuel.
 
THe thin liquid products burn very quickly and generate a very high temperature.  But the heat quanity is not very high.  The stuff on the bottom burns much, much slower, and does so at a far less temperature, but actually has far more energy and gives off much more heat volume.
 
Takeing this to the engine, low octane fuel burns faster and hotter, but with less heat than high octane fuel.  High octane is lower on the cracking scale.   High octane burns slower and longer, and produces more heat.  The increased heat volume heats the air in the cylinder, providing more expansion pressure in the cylinder, and therfore more force on the piston, producing more power.  Timing needs to be increased with high octane to start the slower burning fuel sooner so it hits it's peak at the same time. 
 
It is super heated expanding air that pushes the piston down, not the force of the combustion.  Combustion force is only a small part of the total pressure.  The more you heat the air, the more power.  The more air you get in, the more pressure and more power.  Can you say Turbo?  Supercharger?  High compression engines?
 
A properly running gasoline engine uses a throttle to control the amount of air entering the cylinder.  Again the more air, the more to expand and create pressure.  Fuel needs to be matched to the air volume allowed to get proper combustion.   In normal operation it requires an air fuel ratio of about 14.7:1 pounds of air to one pound of fuel.  (that's about 280,000 gallons of air to one gallon of fuel).   On hard acceleration it drops to about a 12 or 13:1 ratio.  A very rich condition.  On decelleration we can to to about 15:1.  Very lean by gasoline standards.
 
A diesel on the other hand has no throttle.  It does not restrict the amount of air entering the cylinder.  As much as can get through the intake and the valves will get there every time.
 
Instead of a throttle, we now control the amount of fuel being injected into the cylinder to control the amout of heat we create in the cylinder.  The diesel lights by high heat from high compression igniting the fuel when it is sprayed into the cylinder, instead of mixing air and fuel, the compression and spark to start the burn as a gas engine does.
 
As a result, far less fuel is used in a diesel.  At idle diesel runs a super lean 100:1 air fuel ratio.  At full fuel (remember no throttle so not wide open throttle, its always wide open) a diesel will still only use a mixture of 20:1.  Still far leaner than a gas engine, and as a result it uses less fuel than a gasoline engine.  The power is limited by the amount of heat we put into the air in the cylinder, not by limiting the air.  (Remember home heating oil.  Not a lot of temperature, but a lot of heat.)
 
But here is the kicker that allow for the very lean mixtures.  Diesel fuel contains much more heat energy (BTUs) that gasoline.  This large volume of slowly applied heat causes the air in the cylinder to become very hot, and creates the cylinder pressure.  Heat the air for a longer period of time, and apply greater heat volume (not greater temperature)  and a monsterous force is created.  This is where diesels get that awsome torque.
 
All things being equal, which they never are, a gasoline engine is stronger and is faster than a diesel. But the diesel can produce torque at lower engine rpm.  This makes them perfect for trucks and heavy equipment.  But look at the size of the diesels that do the job in those trucks.  They are much larger than gas engine of the same horsepower rating.
 
With the recent improvement in diesels, they are now much cleaner, quiter, and stronger than every before.  Getting equal power to a gas engine still uses much less fuel.  That makes them far more efficient.
 
They still start harder and have all of the problems generally connected with diesels, but those problems are far less noticable than ever before.  On another note, as those problems disappear, the efficiency does drop a bit, but is still greater than a gas engine.
 
Remember at full fuel the diesel runs leaner than gas engine at it leanest operation mode, and almost twice as lean as gas engine at full throttle.
 
Many older diesels will run on kerosene or heating oil.  As a matter of fact the winter blends of diesel fuel use some of those fuels to keep them from getting too thick and not flow in cold weather.
 
Miltary vehicles, including some jets, will run on diesel fuel, kerosene, heating oil, jet fuel, and almost anything liquid that will burn mixed with some of those fuels.  If the incorrect fuel is used the don't run as well, but the do run and will get the job done.
 
Top that off with the Bio Diesel fuel now available (and you can make it in your basement or garage) and the drain on oil supplies ges further break.
 
Those who think hybrids are great will see a lot of improvment when the diesel hybrids hit the market.  And yes, it is highly likely that they will be here soon.   Probably they will show  up in Europe first.  Almost 1/2, or more, fuel used in road vehicles in Europe is already diesel.
 
If there any questions please send me an e-mail.  It may help me get back on and give a response quicker.    bunky44221@yahoo.com
I will get back on with an answer as soon as I can.  
 
School will be out soon and Megan can help with my wife a bit more, and I hope to have some of my time freeded up a bit so I can check in with my extended family.
 



in Forum: General Non-Vette Discussion


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