Let no one think I am offended by disagreement. I think diverse thinking is essential for the growth of a culture. In fact I like argument and debate.

The main problem I have with this issue is that it is one of morality. I disagree with anyone trying to legislate morality. It does not work. Prostitution and drug use are prime examples. The harder we try to stop them, the worse they get.

I personally feel that everyone has a right to their opinion, a right to express their opinion, but not the right to force their opinion or their way of life on others.

If more people respected the differences in others the world would be a much better place. If people were able to look at anothers point of view and politely disagree then they would be much more convincing.

I give as much money to pro-choice organizations as I do pro-life. Absolutely none. I am no zealot for either side. Yet I must disagree with some of the pro-life tactics. Screaming "murderer" at young girls, shooting doctors, and bombing clinics.

These are all the actions of self righteous zealots, people who have appointed themselves enforcers of morality.

What gives anyone the right to decide that they know more about living life than anyone else? What gives anyone the right to impose their beliefs on to someone else?

What makes anyone more capable of making decisions in my life than me ?

Right on target Ben!!!!!!!!!!!!

cthulhu said: Let no one think I am offended by disagreement. I think diverse thinking is essential for the growth of a culture. In fact I like argument and debate. The main problem I have with this issue is that it is one of morality. I disagree with anyone trying to legislate morality. It does not work. Prostitution and drug use are prime examples. The harder we try to stop them, the worse they get. I personally feel that everyone has a right to their opinion, a right to express their opinion, but not the right to force their opinion or their way of life on others. If more people respected the differences in others the world would be a much better place. If people were able to look at anothers point of view and politely disagree then they would be much more convincing. I give as much money to pro-choice organizations as I do pro-life. Absolutely none. I am no zealot for either side. Yet I must disagree with some of the pro-life tactics. Screaming "murderer" at young girls, shooting doctors, and bombing clinics. These are all the actions of self righteous zealots, people who have appointed themselves enforcers of morality. What gives anyone the right to decide that they know more about living life than anyone else? What gives anyone the right to impose their beliefs on to someone else? What makes anyone more capable of making decisions in my life than me ?

Originally Posted by The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness

I have been enjoying the political and moral bantering and usually refrain from politics and moral issues as they are powder kegs....but....As far as I'm concerned, Bush has our national interest correct. Fight and take the fight to them and keep it off our soil. The folks we are dealing with play by a different set of rules. If you don't think so just take a look at the videos of how they deal with hostages. I have never seen anything like it in my life, carving folks up like a side of beef....in the name of God? Not a God I am familiar with and one I care not to know. This isn't Jihad (Holy war, this is plain and simple terrorism Our Commander in Chief anbd the armed forces are unselfishly sacrificing to protect our freedom and way of life. Make no mistake about this. Is Kerry willing to make the hardest decision of all? George is and has to live with it every day. That says volumes for who he is and able to do.

If Kerry got his way,the way he's voted over 20 years in the Semate,etc.,most of the equipment our soldiers are using right now,and most of our present national Defense & Security wouldnt exist.And neither would most or all of our 2nd Amendment rights.I dont see how people can overlook this fact.Along with his Vietnam record,it all adds up to a big screw-up!

|UPDATED|10/23/2004 9:55:15 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

C3RVETTE said: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights

so youre saying god gives others the right to make my decisions for me ?????

maybe he intends me to make those decisions for others.

I assume this is the relevance of the declaration as a response to my post.

cthulhu said:   C3RVETTE said: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights   so youre saying god gives others the right to make my decisions for me ????? maybe he intends me to make those decisions for others. I assume this is the relevance of the declaration as a response to my post.

You really think thats what it said? Man,our schools really are crap,arent they!

Ben, read it again. That's not what it says.
But I also support and somewhat enjoy the arguements. No, I have not been involved in the political discussions here, nor will I. I have my reasons. That does not mean I don't have strong opinions.

It says God grants us all the right to make our own choice. The most direct method of doing that right now is to go vote. Some can do much more. But all should do at least that much.

Ben, you are missing the boat on this point big time.

All laws are a reaction to a lack of morality. If every one understood it is immoral to rob your neighbor and never robbed them, then we would have no need for laws punishing robbers. Since there is a big problem of people stealing in this country we must pass laws against theft, enforce them and punish the thieves. This is our solution to the lack of morality: Deterrant.
The more moral our society is, the less we need laws and restrictions, I.E. the more free it becomes.
Now when you say "How dare you impose your morality on me,I know better what is good for me than someone else." Maybe that is so, but what is good for you, good for your neighbor? lets see. You are short of money and you need that new car, so you steal from your neighbor to get that money. You obviously bettered yourself by hurting your neighbor. That is why we have a law that will deterr you from doing that because the consquence is too great, and your neighbor can continue his own persuit of happiness because he will have his hard earned money with him. (Our founding fathers dream) Do you see the connection ben? The declaration of independence says we are a nation that will build a goverment to make laws and enforce them in order to protect all of mankind's life, liberty, and persuit of happiness.

|UPDATED|10/24/2004 12:55:22 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

My question on the pro-choice issue is: Is our goverment protecting the right of life for all of its people?
Are babies people? Are childeren people? Are teenagers people? Are adults people? Are elderly people? Now I ask is a fetus a person???
What differs a fetus from the rest of the aformentioned people? Upon conception all the needed components to be human are present. Nothing more will need to be added to change the fact that this will be a adult in 20 years. It is now a growing organism that has all the dna to be human and not say...a cow. The Fetus is now only taking in nutrients in order to build and maintain its development and size, and it will continue this until its natural death in about 80 to 100 years assuming it is not interrupted by desease or accident. It is a potential child, just as much as a child is a potential adult. The child will grow up to a full size adult if he or she is allowed the time to do it. A fetus will grow up to a child if he or she is allowed the time to do it.
So the difference between a law protected life of a adult american citizen and the life of a fetus, is the factor of time. Basically our courts ruled that a fetus is too young to have its unalienable right to life protected.
Now lets look back at a dark chapter in our nations history. On March 6, 1857 the U.S. Supreme Court finally decided a very vexing question which had troubled the citizens of the United States for many years. In the landmark Dred Scott Decision the court ruled once and for all that black people were not legal "persons" ac-cording to the U.S. Constitution. A slave was the property of the owner and could be bought and sold, used, or even killed by the owner at the owner’s discretion. The ruling was final. It was by the highest court in the land.

Those who opposed slavery protested, but were met with the retort: "So you oppose slavery? It is against your moral, religious, and ethical convictions? Well, you don’t have to own a slave, but don’t impose your morality on the slave owner. He has the right to choose to own a slave. The Supreme Court has spoken. Slavery is legal." But not for long. It took a bloody civil war to stop slavery. It took the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution to legally grant freedom, civil rights, and voting rights. From a socioeconomic view, we are still striving for full equality.
Now lets look at another dark day in our history. On January 22, 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court finally decided a very vexing question which had troubled the citizens of the United States for many years. In a landmark Decision, the court ruled once and for all that unborn humans were not legal "persons" according to the U.S. Constitution. An unborn baby was the property of the owner (mother), and she could have the baby killed at her request because of her health (social distress). This could be done at any time until birth. The ruling was final. It was by the highest court in the land. On January 22, 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court finally decided a very vexing question which had troubled the citizens of the United States for many years. In a landmark Decision, the court ruled once and for all that unborn humans were not legal "persons" according to the U.S. Constitution. An unborn baby was the property of the owner (mother), and she could have the baby killed at her request because of her health (social distress). This could be done at any time until birth. The ruling was final. It was by the highest court in the land.

Those who opposed abortion protested but were met with a retort that seemed an echo of slavery days. "So you oppose abortion? It is against your moral, religious, and ethical convictions? Well, you don’t have to have an abortion, but don’t impose your morality on the mother (the owner). She has the right to choose to have an abortion. The Supreme Court has spoken. Abortion is legal."

The goal of a Constitutional Amendment or reversal by the Court is still ahead. But the pro-life movement continues to grow. It is now the largest grass roots movement in the history of the U.S.A. Then, the discrimination was on the basis of skin color. Now, it is on the basis of age and place of residence (living in the womb).

Again I apologize for the length but it is a matter of life and death.

|UPDATED|10/24/2004 1:07:59 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|