Ben said:
The same people who are "pro-life" are usually also against welfare. Yet if crack-mothers who are defacto wards of the state were to get more abortions and didnt create more wards of the state then we would save money. Also the idea that forcing a mother to have an unwanted child who is going to grow up to rob, beat, and/or rape your daughter isnt very smart. sure, you can execute them afterward, but why not nip in the bud.


So ben I guess you are for the "Guilty until proven innocent policy?" Your background is not to Ben's satisfation so now all people born of crack-mothers must report to consentration camps where they can be "processed."

Wow!

C3RVETTE said:You really think thats what it said? Man,our schools really are crap,arent they!

what a jacka$$!!

have I insulted your intelligence ?? no

I may think you are an idiot but I have far too much class to insult you just because I disagree with your beliefs.



|UPDATED|10/24/2004 1:36:34 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

kstyer said: Ben, read it again. That's not what it says. But I also support and somewhat enjoy the arguements. No, I have not been involved in the political discussions here, nor will I. I have my reasons. That does not mean I don't have strong opinions. It says God grants us all the right to make our own choice. The most direct method of doing that right now is to go vote. Some can do much more. But all should do at least that much.

yes that was my point. I guess the sarcasm was too subtle. If god didnt want women to have a choice then he wouldnt give them one, but god has given them a choice.

I cant comprehend the arrogance of people who think they have been appointed to enforce god's will. I challenge anyone here to find a passage in the bible that forbids abortion.

if you are a christian you are only allowed to quote the new testament. if you are an orthodox jew you are only allowed to quote the old testament.

we must all make our own choices. therefore if I am pro-choice, let me be so. if you dont like abortion, dont have one, dont let your significant other have one (although she doesnt need your permission)

I dont interfere in peoples lives and tell them that handling snakes at church is silly, even though I think it is. I dont tell people how to run their lives. I wish people would quit telling me how to run mine.

and this includes both republicrooks and demogaogues.

I wish the republicans would quit trying to make me feel guilty about not handling snakes, speaking tongues and swinging from the church rafters. and I wish democrats would let me wear a seat belt when I wanted to and let me eat unhealthy foods when I want.

|UPDATED|10/24/2004 1:44:37 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

oops, duplicate

|UPDATED|10/24/2004 1:29:17 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Tumarr said: Ben, you are missing the boat on this point big time. All laws are a reaction to a lack of morality. If every one understood it is immoral to rob your neighbor and never robbed them, then we would have no need for laws punishing robbers.

actually I didnt miss the point. If I steal from you then I have wronged you.

If me and my significant other abort our child, how have we wronged you.

my point is that what we do is no one's business but ours. not george bush, not john kerry, and not john q public.

Tumarr said: My question on the pro-choice issue is: Is our goverment protecting the right of life for all of its people?

The government does not protect the rights of all of its people as it stands now.

as for whether we should treat humans any different than cattle, tell me why we should. can you prove to me that cows dont have souls. can you prove to me that by eating a hamburger that you arent destroying sentient life. can you prove to me that eating bacon isnt defying god's will. the bible says it is.

leviticus says that wearing clothing of two different cloths is punishable by death. leviticus says that working on the sabbath is punishable by death. I expect everyone of you who has ever worked on sunday to report to death row. if youve ever worn a silk/rayon shirt then please report as well.

since I cant understand the language of cows and I cant understand japanese does that make them equivalent. can I kill a japanese person with the impunity that i kill a cow.

no cause throughout the history of mankind has killed more people than religion. should we all forsake religion ?

who is to say that the other religions of the world arent right. who is to say that polytheism is wrong, or buddhism, islam, mormon, hindu, etc.

you are basing your objection to an issue based on your religious beliefs. what if I dont share those beliefs?

is it fair that there are laws that enforce your interpretation of the judeo-christian code on me ? what if I worship Zeus, or Thor, or Ra ?

What would Thor do ?

I bet Thor wouldnt send bears to eat children for making fun of elijah's bald head as god did in II Kings 2:23

if god will send bears to eat children, then what makes you think he has a problem with abortion.

|UPDATED|10/24/2004 2:57:05 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

Tumarr said: As for the argument that unwanted children are more prone to become criminals - better to abort them before that happens - are we not innocent until it is proven we have committed the crime?

tell that to the people who get nervous with an Arab on a plane. Tell that to the people who have harrassed innocent Arabs because of the action of 19 terrorists.

as for whether an unwanted child raised by unfit parents is likely to be the next einstein. first lets play the odds. If I have a 2 and 6 of clubs, a 10 of hearts, 5 of diamonds, and a 9 of spades... Im not gonna bet the family farm in this hand of poker. You can say that there is always a remote possibility that I may win the hand... but im not going to bet on it. much like im not going to bet on the crack baby curing AIDS.

and over the last few days while we have argued this point around 10,000 living sentient human beings have died from genocide in Africa while our government argues about whether it is technically genocide or just ethnic cleansing. Maybe one of them was the person that was going to cure AIDS.

maybe the fetus that is destined to cure cancer died last week when it's pregnant mother was killed in a car wreck before viability. perhaps we should stop driving. maybe the fetus thats going to cure cancer will die tomorrow because it's mother gets the flu. maybe the fetus that is destined to cure cancer will be born retarded because it's mother lives in LA and has inhaled too much smog.

maybe the fetus destined to broker peace in the middle east died on sept 11, 2001.

cthulhu said:   C3RVETTE said:You really think thats what it said? Man,our schools really are crap,arent they!   what a jacka$$!! have I insulted your intelligence ?? no I may think you are an idiot but I have far too much class to insult you just because I disagree with your beliefs.

Sorry,that wasnt really meant as a personel attack,I just had a bad moment.If I remember rite,at least in schools I attended,the Declaration of Independence was actually talked about...not where you attended? Its our most important piece of history.I wasnt talking about beliefs,I was pointing out that you read the words wrong,go reread it.
Sounds like 4 the most part,you agree with what I believe are our rights,and the government doesnt give them to us,we allow the government to enforce them 4 us.If we dont like the way they do it-we get rid of the power hungry idiots & get new representatives



|UPDATED|10/24/2004 10:19:09 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|

If god didnt want women to have a choice then he wouldnt give them one, but god has given them a choice.

I cant comprehend the arrogance of people who think they have been appointed to enforce god's will. I challenge anyone here to find a passage in the bible that forbids abortion.

if you are a christian you are only allowed to quote the new testament. if you are an orthodox jew you are only allowed to quote the old testament.

we must all make our own choices. therefore if I am pro-choice, let me be so. if you dont like abortion, dont have one, dont let your significant other have one (although she doesnt need your permission)



 

By inference:

Exodus 20
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Psalms 127:3
3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,
Psalms 139:7-16
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. 9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, 10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike {to You.}
13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, {And} skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained {for me,} When as yet there was not one of them.

C3RVETTE said: Sorry,that wasnt really meant as a personel attack,I just had a bad moment.If I remember rite,at least in schools I attended,the Declaration of Independence was actually talked about...not where you attended? Its our most important piece of history.I wasnt talking about beliefs,I was pointing out that you read the words wrong,go reread it. Sounds like 4 the most part,you agree with what I believe are our rights,and the government doesnt give them to us,we allow the government to enforce them 4 us.If we dont like the way they do it-we get rid of the power hungry idiots & get new representatives

yes... my response was supposed to be sarcasm. as everyone seems to believe the rights that they were endowed with by their creator supercede everyone elses.