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Topic: Overheat... kind of

in Forum: C3 Cooling and Heating Systems


Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/29/05 5:55pm Message 1 of 26
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Canada
Joined: 8/6/2004
Posts: 533
Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
I'll try to keep it short.
 
Took the car for a ride today (barely 5 miles) and the water temp indicated 20 degrees OVER the red line.
 
I have run hot before; let's say 6 months ago, at close to 210 for a short period.. if I was pushing it on the high way (in the FL heat).
 
Recently, I installed a new radio and spent a lot of time behind the dash (which has been re-grounded after I installed the after market radio).  At one point of time, everything from the gage cluster was disconnected and now back in.  Everything in the cluster works.
 
When I took the car out today, I started it and let it idle for about 5 minutes (until the water temp was about 140).  At that point, I did not even drove 1/8 mile (in a parking) and the water temp was already 220.  2 miles later, it was over the red line.
 
There was no smoke, but a little bit of burned oil smell.  I have a very good feeling that it was not truely at 260, but I didn't want to push my luck, so I drove it for a few miles and came back to park it.
 
SO, I did not read the service manual yet to diagnose this one.  I came straight here to ask you guys for advise.  The reason I want to ask here first, is because SO many things could be related to that and I don't know the proper order of diagnosis.
 
Also, when I parked it, there was a tiny bit of smoke coming out of the oil cap on the driver side head.  The fan was not turning after I shut the engine off and after about 1 minute, the radiator started "cycling".
 
Any idea of an order in which to explore things and most importantly, it has to be measureable.  I currently don't have a tool to mesure heat, but I will probably go buy one of those "gun" with a laser pointer that returns the temperature.
 
I'm thinking of looking at it in the following order :
1) the water temp gage itself (it could be bad)
2) the thermostat
3) the water pump
4) the coolant (could use a flush right now, starting to look brownish)
5) the radiator itself
 
Is it the right way to tackle this problem ?
 
Again, I think the car does overheat, but I don't think it was 260.
 
Slightly unrelated; I was planning to have my new exhaust system installed next week, should I fixe the temp problem first or it doesn't matter ?



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Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/29/05 6:07pm Message 2 of 26
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
Posts: 20214
Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
I would start with the thermostat first, if it is indeed running that hot. The fact that you say it was smoking out of the oil fill cap is not good, tho!
You have the right ideas to check, in the right order. Good luck!!


Joel Adams
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Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/30/05 8:31am Message 3 of 26
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northern, IL - USA
Joined: 9/9/2005
Posts: 135
Vette(s): 1973 t top, 454, manual trans.

 Did you check the coolant level in the radiator (not the overflow tank)? The smoke in the oil fill could be water vapor , like in headgasket leak. Just a thought, hope its not, hope its condensation.

 Maybe try a radiator pressure tester for leak down. hopefully someplace like autozone will let you borrow one.




Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/30/05 9:12am Message 4 of 26
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North Charleston, SC - USA
Joined: 3/20/2004
Posts: 4176
Vette(s): 1975 L48 AT AC T-top
Based on the fact that you smelled "burned oil" and saw something visibly venting from the oil cap, I would say that it was overheating and probably reached 230 degrees or more. I would certainly test or change the thermostat first. If you suspect a blockage in the flow, then go ahead with the flush. I would buy or borrow an infared thermometer and "shoot" the thermostat housing and various other locations where coolant flows. This tool will show you where you have a problem if the thermostat does not correct the problem. 


Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 8:11am Message 5 of 26
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Canada
Joined: 8/6/2004
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Vette(s): Coupe 74 - 454 Drive it like you stole it!
Yesterday I went to a local part store and got myself a thermostat (I think it's 192 degree; I though it would be 160, but the guy said that on his computer, the 192 was "original equipement"....)
 
To my surprise, the thermostat housing came out real easy (It took me a sledge hammer for the EGR valve last time...).  And to my even bigger surprise, there was no thermostat ! (And btw, the upper hose is in good condition inside; so no sign of collapsing.  I will assume the same for the lower one until I have a reason the reach it.)
 
So I added (instead of replacing...) the thermostat and same thing; let it idle for 5 minutes; it reaches about 150.  I engaged in Reverse and sat there for 45 seconds (engaged in reverse and holding the brakes).  The water temp went to 300.  Even my oven doesn't go up 150 degrees in 45 seconds, and that's is function; to produce heat!
 
So I still took it for a 5 minutes ride to get the feel of it.  Again, a little bit of burned oil smell here and there, but not constant.  When I came back and parked it, no smoke coming out of the oil cap this time (for pretty much the same ride as I did before).
 
I forgot to "feel" the upper hose on the way back, but when it was on idle at 150 degrees (before the ride), the upper hose was cold and as far as I know, I could not feel any flow.
 
I verified the radiator cap; it seems to be in good condition and I had it pressure tested about 9 months ago and it held 15 pounds over 15 minutes.
 
The inside of the radioator is dark yellow; almost rust (if not rust...). There's a little coat of deposit.
 
My next step (which might not be until next weekend...), is to replace the coolant.  I bought the good ol' green stuff that I will mix 50/50 with distilled water and also a quart of that magic stuff that supposely brings it down another 15 degrees.
 
In the overflow tank, the coolant level seems okay, but I was expecting to have a little overflow when I removed the thermostat housing and I didn't.  I didn't really pay attention to the exact measurement, but in the radiator, the level was a good 6" down from the top.  I think it's a little bit low.
 
Few questions about replacing the coolant (which I never did before).
1) can I just drain it and re-fill ?  (no cleaning/rinsing...)
2) If I use my oil pans (a 15 and a 9 qts) and correctly dispose of the coolant, can I still use these pans for oil later ?
3) I can't reach the drain plug without putting the car on a stand. Does it mean that I won't be able to drain it completely given the angle ?
4) Can the White Sox do it again ?
 
 



Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 1:56pm Message 6 of 26
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Old Hickory, TN - USA
Joined: 5/26/2003
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Vette(s): 1978 L-82 Silver Anniversary hotrod. /////////////
I strongly suggest you get the overheating problem fixed before draining and refilling the system.

Light her back up again and don't forget to feel the upper radiator hose. I assume your coolant level is up to the top of the radiator.

If the hose isn't hot when the gauge says it is, you're not getting any circulation. You may have some sort of an airlock keeping the water away from the water pump. I had this pesky problem with my wife's '86 and filling the system through a heater hose got the block filled, problem went away. The 86 line from the radiator to the water pump takes a twisty path up and over a frame rail which yours likely does not.

If the hose gets good and hot, it might just be the fan clutch. Those things do wear out over 30 years or so. If the fan turns freely by hand while the engine is hot, you have a shot fan clutch.

Don't worry too much, as a BRIEF encounter over 260 probably is OK, but 300 scares even me. Once you get the overheating problem solved, by all means, drain and refill. These things do not like brown water.

Before refilling, flush it real good with fresh water through the heater hose and out the top of the radiator, you'll have to pull the thermostat to flush.

To get all the water out, you should open or remove the drain plugs from either side of the engine block. You won't get a full 50 - 50 antifreeze mix with the block full of water, but that likely doesn't matter a whole lot in FL.

Dave


Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 7:10pm Message 7 of 26
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EASTON, MD - USA
Joined: 1/20/2002
Posts: 82
Vette(s): 1980 Repainted Custom Pearl White
Those temps are scarry.  Have you checked the oil, is it milky? Pull the plugs to see if any of them are wet.  Unfortunetly small bolck chevy heads are prone to warping and cracking.  Ok if all is ok then buy a cheep mechanical temp gage. Hook it up under the hood, and check your temp with that. If it is normal then its your gage or sending unit that is bad.  Just remember after you run the car and stop, pop the hood and check the mechanical gage fast, because the engine temp will go up after you stop and turn off the engine.  After that follow what the guys have said above.  One last thing your drain pans, once you drain oil into a drain pan it is almost impossible to clean it out completly.  Boy do I hate that, so to get around that I put a plastic trash bag into the pan, drain the oil or antifreeze, pull the bag out cut a small hole into one corner and drain whatever into empty gallon milk jugs.


Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 7:49pm Message 8 of 26
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Duncanville, TX - USA
Joined: 11/8/2003
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Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
A word of caution about the drain plug!

Your car will have a "plug", NOT a petcock, to drain the radiator(unless it has been changed somewhere down the line). Do yourself a favor, and don't mess with it! I can almost guarantee it will twist the entire fitting out of the radiator, and then you'll be pulling the rad. to take to the repair shop!
I have learned this on MANY older cars with the plug type drain, including my '74. While it is a big pain to take the lower hose off, it is the best way to drain the rad., along with the "block plugs" on the side of the engine.

There's no problem with draining the water into the pan you use for oil changes. Just clean it after with paper towels. I only have one large drainpan, that works for anything I need it for.

I think if your rad. has a lot of funk in it, it would be a good idea to pull it, and have it professionally cleaned. Then you could flush the engine while the rad. is out.

If the water level in the rad. was 6" down, then it is low. When you start the engine, the level will go down, as the pump pulls the coolant into the engine. You need some free space in the rad., but 6" is excessive. You may have a leak in the hose to the overflow tank. If it has a leak, it will not be able to return the coolant to the rad. when it needs it(after cooling down). Fill the rad. to about an inch below the rim, where the cap goes, and make sure the overflow is filled to the "Full Cold" mark. Try that and see if the overheat is still as bad. Adams' Apple38656.8582060185


Joel Adams
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Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 8:19pm Message 9 of 26
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Wichita, KS - USA
Joined: 11/10/2003
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Vette(s): 2005 Daytona Sunset Orange Metallic Coupe --------------------- Sold 1974 T-top, 4 spd to BillKS

Joel --- My 74 has a petcock valve on the bottom, right side of the radiator.  I just drained, flushed and replaced the antifreeze in my system a month ago.  If it was supposed to have a plug, I wonder if the previous owner replaced mine with a petcock or maybe replaced the radiator. 

Larry




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Overheat... kind of

Posted: 10/31/05 8:33pm Message 10 of 26
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Duncanville, TX - USA
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Vette(s): #1-1974 L-48 4spd Cp Med Red Metallic/Black deluxe int w/AC/tilt/tele./p/w-p/b/ Am-Fm/map light National/Regional/Chapter NCRS "Top Flight" #2-1985 Bright Red/Carmine Cp.L-98/auto Member: NCRS, NCRS Texas, Corvette Legends of Texas
Larry, I'd be willin to bet somebody already twisted the orig. plug out, and had it replaced with the petcock, to keep that from happening again!
I thought about doing that when I busted the rad. on my '74, but then, it wouldn't be "original"!
The original set-up was a plug, but a petcock would be the way to go, if you didn't give a hoot about "originality".


Joel Adams
C3VR Lifetime Member #56    

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(click for Texas-sized view!)
             NCRS

"Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comforting to cry in a CORVETTE than in a Kia"

in Forum: C3 Cooling and Heating Systems


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